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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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 Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
..nobody with an online MA from KFC/McDonalds university warrants being called "professor". |
True, but having an online MA from KFC university is better than nothing at all - I am glad that the Koreans are starting to smarten up and raise their standards. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| How is requiring "a BA plus four years teaching uni or a masters plus two years teaching uni" smartening up? That's just benefiting the good ol' boys club of pretentious lifers who lucked out by being in the right place at the right time. They are not the most qualified people for the job. I read once you get into the uni system you're there for good. It is getting in in the first place that is the hard part. And it's getting harder and harder to get into the good jobs as time goes by. Keeping them once you've got in is another matter. Not nearly as hard. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| How is requiring "a BA plus four years teaching uni or a masters plus two years teaching uni" smartening up? That's just benefiting the good ol' boys club of pretentious lifers who lucked out by being in the right place at the right time. They are not the most qualified people for the job. I read once you get into the uni system you're there for good. It is getting in in the first place that is the hard part. And it's getting harder and harder to get into the good jobs as time goes by. Keeping them once you've got in is another matter. Not nearly as hard. |
What on earth are you babbling on about?
Korean universities are getting more and more CV's from people with related postgrad qualifications. If they were serious of course, they would pay the going rate and then they would get the cream of the crop like the Saudis do.
It is nothing to do with 'being at the right place at the right time' It is about doing what it takes to get the right qualifications so your CV is took a bit more seriously than some lifer who has done 10 years at GEPIK who still has that BA in cake making studies.
There comes a time you can't compete with the 22 year old bits of skirt who are as equally as qualified and you have to make way.
And if you get an MA in dungeons and dragons and want to teach English then you have effed up badly!
The MA in TESOL or Linguistics is portable you know, it isn't Korea or bust. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| robbie_davies wrote: |
| It is about doing what it takes to get the right qualifications so your CV is took a bit more seriously |
The universities just want a waeguk with a pulse who knows how to bow and greet. Thats all they ever wanted.
They're no different to hogwons.
If you're going to spend tens of thousands of dollars pursuing an MA just to be an exotic pet in Korea you need your head read. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| robbie_davies wrote: |
| What on earth are you babbling on about? |
Hi. You are ignorant.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=228582
| robbie_davies wrote: |
| It is nothing to do with 'being at the right place at the right time' It is about doing what it takes to get the right qualifications |
WRONG! There are loads of BA holders working in very good Korean universities in Seoul. I'm talking about the top ten universities in all of Korea. What those people all have in common is they got in back when hiring standards were low. If I wanted to get into a top ranked Korean university I'd probably have to have a PhD (just to get what the BA only holder has). |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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Investing money in yourself in the EFL industry is a terrible idea.
So often getting a job depends on ethnicity and looks.
So, yeah, if you must invest, then go for liposuction if you are obese. It's the only worthwhile investment theoretically possible.
As for careers at home after TEFL - let me say this - more than 2 years in TEFL is career suicide. You will never get a worthwhile job at home with the market the way it is. |
Every time you, or others write stuff like this you are confronted with stories like this one from Thiuda
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Before online MA
2001: 2.4 million/m, 36h/w, 10 days vac
2002: €1400/m, part-time, no benefits
2003: 1.8 million/m, 18h/w, 90 days vac (first uni job & started MA)
2004: 2.5 million/m, 15h/w, 120 days vac (second uni job; MA in progress)
After completing online MA
2005 - 2008: 3 million/m, 15h/w, 120 days vac (second uni job/MA complete)
2009 - 2011: 3 million/m, 12h/w, 120 days vac (third uni job & started PhD)
2011 - present: 4.2 million/m, 18h/w, 90 days vac (fourth uni job & ABD)
Of course experience factors in as well, but all in all, for me, the online MA was worth it.
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Yet you don't do anything to improve your own situation and blindly continue with the same complaints. |
Could not agree more, well said (or quoted) Ed. |
How many with masters get these work conditions realistically? I appreciate your success and am happy for you. But there are also lots of MA holders working for 2.1 mil at a Uni Hakwon type of job. A few get good job like described above though. |
There are some MA holders working for 2.1, that is true. The good jobs do not fall on your lap just because you have a M.A.. That was not what I said anyway. The better positions open up for people who have the qualifications, experience AND who network. This is pretty much the same in most employment fields. Networking means making professional contacts through shared projects, conferences, workshops, courses taken and so on.
So you want that good job? If you have the qualifications, accumulate the relevant experience and put in the effort to get out there and network, well chances are you will get to that job. A professional network means you get referals when jobs open. Also note that most of the better positions are filled by referals.
Just sitting on your M.A. will not give you that job except through luck or timing. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
[quote="Julius"]
The universities just want a waeguk with a pulse who knows how to bow and greet. Thats all they ever wanted. |
Looks like all that is changing.
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They're no different to hogwons.
If you're going to spend tens of thousands of dollars pursuing an MA just to be an exotic pet in Korea you need your head read. |
I am shocked at your lack of imagination regarding what other options are out there for someone with an MA. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:45 am Post subject: |
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So, they want a minimum standard? So what? About time too, I know that is what I would want if I was doing the hiring and firing and you are going to find that the BA and experience is going to woefully inadequate as more and more people get MA's.
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| WRONG! There are loads of BA holders working in very good Korean universities in Seoul. I'm talking about the top ten universities in all of Korea. What those people all have in common is they got in back when hiring standards were low. If I wanted to get into a top ranked Korean university I'd probably have to have a PhD (just to get what the BA only holder has). |
There might be, but it is obvious to all that once these people leave or are ousted that they will be replacing them with better qualified people. Now, if you want to compete with these people then you know what to do, but don't start moaning about life 'not being fair' when you can't compete with the better qualified people because your qualifications are inadequate. Your choice pal!  |
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misher
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| WRONG! There are loads of BA holders working in very good Korean universities in Seoul. I'm talking about the top ten universities in all of Korea. What those people all have in common is they got in back when hiring standards were low. If I wanted to get into a top ranked Korean university I'd probably have to have a PhD (just to get what the BA only holder has). |
If Korea becomes anything remotely like Japan ( and it very well could) then a PhD in Tesol or some other soft crap is going to be what it takes to get your foot in the door. Plus peer reviewed publications. All that to do basically what the BA cake study "professor" is already doing. Glorified "communication" classes ( really just hagwon classes with 30plus students) and some TOEIC. The students don't get much out of it ( unlike EAP intensives in the states for example) because they only have English class a few hours a week. Education inflation overkill at its finest. |
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misher
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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There are some MA holders working for 2.1, that is true. The good jobs do not fall on your lap just because you have a M.A.. That was not what I said anyway. The better positions open up for people who have the qualifications, experience AND who network. This is pretty much the same in most employment fields. Networking means making professional contacts through shared projects, conferences, workshops, courses taken and so on.
So you want that good job? If you have the qualifications, accumulate the relevant experience and put in the effort to get out there and network, well chances are you will get to that job. A professional network means you get referals when jobs open. Also note that most of the better positions are filled by referals.
Just sitting on your M.A. will not give you that job except through luck or timing. |
This is where Patrick hits the nail on the head. Couldn't agree more. Conferences are simply the best.
Unfortunately EFL in Asia doesn't really attract many of the sociable, likable sorts that would 'get out there' to move up the food chain. They would rather sit back and complain how networking is unfair. Yeah well that's the way the world works. No wonder getting a job back home ( that goes for ESL jobs too) is/was out of the question. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| robbie_davies wrote: |
| World Traveler wrote: |
| How is requiring "a BA plus four years teaching uni or a masters plus two years teaching uni" smartening up? That's just benefiting the good ol' boys club of pretentious lifers who lucked out by being in the right place at the right time. They are not the most qualified people for the job. I read once you get into the uni system you're there for good. It is getting in in the first place that is the hard part. And it's getting harder and harder to get into the good jobs as time goes by. Keeping them once you've got in is another matter. Not nearly as hard. |
What on earth are you babbling on about?
Korean universities are getting more and more CV's from people with related postgrad qualifications. If they were serious of course, they would pay the going rate and then they would get the cream of the crop like the Saudis do.
It is nothing to do with 'being at the right place at the right time' It is about doing what it takes to get the right qualifications so your CV is took a bit more seriously than some lifer who has done 10 years at GEPIK who still has that BA in cake making studies.
There comes a time you can't compete with the 22 year old bits of skirt who are as equally as qualified and you have to make way.
And if you get an MA in dungeons and dragons and want to teach English then you have effed up badly!
The MA in TESOL or Linguistics is portable you know, it isn't Korea or bust. |
That's to say a 22 year old with no experience and who's never worked before is equal to a 10 year vet? Experience is the greatest teacher of all. Trial and error and developing techniques. Not to say more education shouldn't be pursued, but when an MA gets you a uni that pays 2.0 million a month, doesn't seem worth it to me. In other words, the economic ends don't justify the debt taking on means. (We weren't all born with a silver spoon in our mouths where mommy and daddy paid our way through college. Some of us have real debts to pay and can't upgrade qualifications until that debt is settled. Why do it anyways to make the same wage?)
But if Korean unis wanted top ranked PHD's, they would pay Saudi style wages and that would be that. Truth is they don't. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
[
But if Korean unis wanted top ranked PHD's, they would pay Saudi style wages and that would be that. Truth is they don't. |
http://chronicle.com/article/South-Korea-Brings-in-Foreign/126508/
You mean like in the above article?
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| As a tenure-track assistant professor, Ms. Son has a salary similar to what she would earn at some colleges in the United States ($43,000 to $50,000 a year), and she is eligible to join South Korea's universal health-care system. "A big plus with a child," she says. |
| Quote: |
| The cost of recruiting from abroad has also come under fire in the South Korean news media. With salaries often pegged to the dollar, universities must find 80 million won (about $71,000) a year for a foreign hire, nearly twice the annual salary for a Korean professor at a public university. |
That is of course for people who are professors in their home countries...not someone with a liberal arts B.A for example
(bolding mine) |
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misher
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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The cost of recruiting from abroad has also come under fire in the South Korean news media. With salaries often pegged to the dollar, universities must find 80 million won (about $71,000) a year for a foreign hire, [b]nearly twice the annual salary for a Korean professor/b] at a public university.
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I'll call BS on that. Perhaps for a Korean adjunct or freshly graduated assistant prof in their thirties but fully tenured profs at public universities make one hell of a lot more than $35,000 a year. That number won't include perks or most importantly, the net present value of their defined benefit pension plan which is basically considered gold in Korea these days.
I think the problem here is that we simply cannot compare content based academics and TESOL academics. Yeah to get that PhD astrophysicist from Caltech, sure the Korean uni is going to have to pony up, and they do.
For TESOL? Come on. The subject is too soft. Korean unis don't go after it because there is really no need for it. It's not because they're being cheap. They just know that at the end of the day, an Esl teacher in their uni is just a glorified hagwon teacher. They're just asking for MA TESOLs now because the market is becoming flooded with them ( race to the bottom) so why not? If they don't get it, the BA will do as it always has. They can't have the same attitude with hard academic content based subjects in science and engineering. It is apples and oranges. |
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diver
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
That's to say a 22 year old with no experience and who's never worked before is equal to a 10 year vet? Experience is the greatest teacher of all. Trial and error and developing techniques.
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I'd agree with this to some extent, but only if the teachers are truly reflective and work at getting better. But doing something badly for a long time sometimes just means that you've been doing something badly for a long time - and not getting any better at it.
Sometimes (IMHO), the 22 year-old-fresh out of training is going to be a better teacher than someone with no formal training who has been doing it for ten years.
Someone with formal training and ten years experience would trump them both  |
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joeydonuts
Joined: 19 Nov 2012
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:17 am Post subject: |
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[quote="misher"]
| Quote: |
Quote:
For TESOL? Come on. The subject is too soft. Korean unis don't go after it because there is really no need for it. It's not because they're being cheap. They just know that at the end of the day, an Esl teacher in their uni is just a glorified hagwon teacher. They're just asking for MA TESOLs now because the market is becoming flooded with them ( race to the bottom) so why not? If they don't get it, the BA will do as it always has. They can't have the same attitude with hard academic content based subjects in science and engineering. It is apples and oranges. |
Agreed to certain extent but it's important to note that the SSCI journals that publish TESOL/AL papers are no cakewalk and a doctorate holder with some publications in these journals can expect to make anywhere from 4 to 6 million/month depending on a multitude of other factors. Not great but definitely ok
Also, better uni's do recruit ma-tesol holders these days -- mine mandates it in a de facto sense by only paying the ma bonus to those with an ma-tesol or related degree. While I cannot site studies on the matter, I have gone through 2 hiring seasons in the past 3 years and can say that having the ma tesol and some academic (sub-SSCI) achievements in TESOL/AL have gotten me interest from sought after positions and my background was why (at least that's what i was told in the interviews). Again, I'm not refuting what you're saying outright - just offering my experience.
To take the conversation in another direction, I do find that the teachers who are fixated on the cash tend to be the worst at their craft. Don't get me wrong- I'd like to make more money but I enjoy doing what I do and right now the SSCI challenge/mountain (who knows if I'll climb it!) just makes my working/studying experience more meaningful. I guess what I'm saying is that if EFL teaching does not invoke in the slightest bit of passion in someone and it's merely a source of income: 1 - They should get out, 2 - Please stop complaining, and 3 - Just open a study room! |
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