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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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 Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
jvalmer is right.
The evacuation of a plane follows set guidelines and must be orderly. That starts with getting the all clear from the cockpit if possible. |
I would think it would start with an immediate assessment of the extent of the damage, and of any imminent threats of danger, such as fire, or perhaps sinking, as there might be if it had been a water landing.
Some situations call for more urgency than others. |
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optik404
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| Sector7G wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
jvalmer is right.
The evacuation of a plane follows set guidelines and must be orderly. That starts with getting the all clear from the cockpit if possible. |
I would think it would start with an immediate assessment of the extent of the damage, and of any imminent threats of danger, such as fire, or perhaps sinking, as there might be if it had been a water landing.
Some situations call for more urgency than others. |
The flight attendants did assess the damage. Which is why they evacuated the plane on the left side because the right was on fire. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| optik404 wrote: |
| Sector7G wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
jvalmer is right.
The evacuation of a plane follows set guidelines and must be orderly. That starts with getting the all clear from the cockpit if possible. |
I would think it would start with an immediate assessment of the extent of the damage, and of any imminent threats of danger, such as fire, or perhaps sinking, as there might be if it had been a water landing.
Some situations call for more urgency than others. |
The flight attendants did assess the damage. Which is why they evacuated the plane on the left side because the right was on fire. |
Oh, by all accounts the flight attendants performed heroically. But the attendant who first talked to the pilot was told to wait before evacuating. That's what I am talking about. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| Sector7G wrote: |
| Oh, by all accounts the flight attendants performed heroically. But the attendant who first talked to the pilot was told to wait before evacuating. That's what I am talking about. |
Considering the plane was evacuated in about 90 seconds, that wait time wasn't that significant. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| Sector7G wrote: |
| Oh, by all accounts the flight attendants performed heroically. But the attendant who first talked to the pilot was told to wait before evacuating. That's what I am talking about. |
Considering the plane was evacuated in about 90 seconds, that wait time wasn't that significant. |
That is still not the point that I was trying to make, which is that it appears that those in the front of the plane did not know the extent of the damage(or injuries) to the rear of the plane. I am not saying that in a negative or sarcastic way. Initially, they had no way of knowing. But as I said earlier, I would think the captain of the ship would want to assess damage and threats immediately. And he can not do that while sitting in the cockpit. If there is a fire raging I don't think it would be prudent to "wait" to evacuate.
And purely for conversational purposes, where are you getting your information about it being evacuated in 90 seconds? That is the ideal, yes, but I can find no timeline that says they achieved that this time. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| Sector7G wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
jvalmer is right.
The evacuation of a plane follows set guidelines and must be orderly. That starts with getting the all clear from the cockpit if possible. |
I would think it would start with an immediate assessment of the extent of the damage, and of any imminent threats of danger, such as fire, or perhaps sinking, as there might be if it had been a water landing.
Some situations call for more urgency than others. |
Yep that too but the evacuation requires the all clear from the pilots if possible as they need to check the status of the plane through instruments if possible. That is a necessary precaution. The air crew (hostesses) do a visual check too and can order the evacuation if they deem it necessary and if the cockpit is not responding.
How do I know this? My cousin works for an airline as a stewardess-air crew.
Their training is pretty demanding and the final call always rests with the pilot if at all possible. In the case of this flight, the stewardess-hostess probably wanted to make sure the pilot did not see something she missed before ordering the evacuation from the plane.
I see no negligence on the crew's part in this instance anyway. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Yep that too but the evacuation requires the all clear from the pilots if possible as they need to check the status of the plane through instruments if possible. That is a necessary precaution. The air crew (hostesses) do a visual check too and can order the evacuation if they deem it necessary and if the cockpit is not responding.
How do I know this? My cousin works for an airline as a stewardess-air crew.
Their training is pretty demanding and the final call always rests with the pilot if at all possible. In the case of this flight, the stewardess-hostess probably wanted to make sure the pilot did not see something she missed before ordering the evacuation from the plane.
I see no negligence on the crew's part in this instance anyway. |
It may have been hard for two of the hostesses working in the back of the plane to convey any useful information as they had been ejected from the plane and were found lying on the runway.
But I suppose you can't expect 3 pilots to know that sitting in the cockpit looking at instruments, especially in the shell shocked condition they must have been in.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57593064/2-asiana-flight-attendants-ejected-in-crash-and-found-on-runway-feds-say/ |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| Sector7G wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Yep that too but the evacuation requires the all clear from the pilots if possible as they need to check the status of the plane through instruments if possible. That is a necessary precaution. The air crew (hostesses) do a visual check too and can order the evacuation if they deem it necessary and if the cockpit is not responding.
How do I know this? My cousin works for an airline as a stewardess-air crew.
Their training is pretty demanding and the final call always rests with the pilot if at all possible. In the case of this flight, the stewardess-hostess probably wanted to make sure the pilot did not see something she missed before ordering the evacuation from the plane.
I see no negligence on the crew's part in this instance anyway. |
It may have been hard for two of the hostesses working in the back of the plane to convey any useful information as they had been ejected from the plane and were found lying on the runway.
But I suppose you can't expect 3 pilots to know that sitting in the cockpit looking at instruments, especially in the shell shocked condition they must have been in.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57593064/2-asiana-flight-attendants-ejected-in-crash-and-found-on-runway-feds-say/ |
Indeed. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:27 am Post subject: |
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^^^^ I was being sarcastic. I am still scratching my head as to why the pilots would delay the evacuation by even one second. The passengers are extremely lucky that the fire took as long as it did to spread.
Flight Attendant Says Asiana 214 Pilot Delayed Evacuation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CGPgW0P4eI |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Also this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/08/us/one-passengers-story-we-had-to-help-each-other-out.html?src=recg
Mr. Levy stood up inside the shattered aircraft. He pried open the escape door and began to call out directions.
“We were left on our own,” Mr. Levy said. “There was no message from the pilot, from the crew — there was no one. We had to help each other out,” he said, describing how he and others stayed in the plane and helped passengers escape, shouting for them to keep calm.
There were no announcements from the cockpit, and the flight attendants were nowhere to be found. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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I'm With You
Joined: 01 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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Have any of you read Malcolm Gladwell's book titled, Outliers, where he analyzes the Korean style of communication and ties it in with Korean Air's excessive airline disasters of the 1980s and 1990s? I even think he has an incident where he discusses the Guam crash that really sheds light on this issue.
Not sure if this applies to the San Francisco crash, but it's worth considering in light of the questions surrounding the pilot's training activities and responsibilities.
Who was present at the company to say, "Uh uh, you're not training on live flight full of people." |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Sector7G wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| Sector7G wrote: |
| Oh, by all accounts the flight attendants performed heroically. But the attendant who first talked to the pilot was told to wait before evacuating. That's what I am talking about. |
Considering the plane was evacuated in about 90 seconds, that wait time wasn't that significant. |
That is still not the point that I was trying to make, which is that it appears that those in the front of the plane did not know the extent of the damage(or injuries) to the rear of the plane. I am not saying that in a negative or sarcastic way. Initially, they had no way of knowing. But as I said earlier, I would think the captain of the ship would want to assess damage and threats immediately. And he can not do that while sitting in the cockpit. If there is a fire raging I don't think it would be prudent to "wait" to evacuate.
And purely for conversational purposes, where are you getting your information about it being evacuated in 90 seconds? That is the ideal, yes, but I can find no timeline that says they achieved that this time. |
Getting up and immediately heading into the back is the last thing. You need to check your instruments and verify that things like the engines have turned off. This gives the pilot the information he needs, not popping his head out and seeing the curtain between first class and coach. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Getting up and immediately heading into the back is the last thing. You need to check your instruments and verify that things like the engines have turned off. This gives the pilot the information he needs, not popping his head out and seeing the curtain between first class and coach. |
Ok, and it takes all 3 pilots in the cockpit to do that? |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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As I said before, I give the pilots the benefit of the doubt that they had no way of knowing that the tail section was missing.
But did you see the video of the crash? The plane was very close to cart-wheeling. As it was it spun around and came down very hard. It seems like one of the 4 pilots could have checked the back of the plane.
If you guys are right, and they did it by the book, then the book needs to be updated. |
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