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Seoulman69
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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But add to that a certain % that would fawn over the foreigner simply because they were from the West. It flows both ways when breaking it down that way.
Overall though, I agree with your summary. As I mentioned earlier, I had a good bud here that was in her 60s, and she was treated like royalty. Not ALL of the time, but far more than me (being much younger than her). |
The people who fawn over the foreigner would be included in the percentage that treat the foreigner with respect.
I'm not saying every Korean treats foreigners terribly, buy I am certain that a Korean man of the same age will be given more respect than a foreigner. I think that's what you were agreeing with.
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If 10 of them are racist why would they treat the Korean man with more respect then the American?
Not all racists live in Korea or are Korean. |
See CC's reply. |
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: Foreigners not given the "age respect" thing? |
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| Waygeek wrote: |
| So if you don't get into the culture, look sullen 24/7 and complain about the country 364 days a year the people of that country are hardly gonna dish you out respect are they? |
Where does he say he walks around looking sullen? Does he complain about Korea to his work colleagues? He doesn't mention it. Those are some mental powers you have Waygeek. What else does he do on a daily basis to invite disrespect? Oh, and how does that transfer to disrespect from kids on the street saying "puck you", being turned away from fitness clubs, people not sitting beside us on the subway, etc. Is the OP's (imagined) at-work attitude causing all of this? It's absolutely fascinating if it is, but I do have my doubts. Maybe he's just part of the 90% of foreigners here that you identify as "bad human beings." Yeah, that's it. Blame the foreigner for all of Korea's cultural failings. And while we're on topic, did you hear the latest news. Americans are to blame for the Asiana crash.  |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| The people who fawn over the foreigner would be included in the percentage that treat the foreigner with respect. |
No, they wouldn't. They would be a different group- Those that treat foreigners with more respect than they do other Koreans.
And sorry "fawning" is not a baseline for behavior. I know you're not like this, but there is a small foreigner minority who basically believes that the people here should be "awed by their presence".
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buy I am certain that a Korean man of the same age will be given more respect than a foreigner. I think that's what you were agreeing with.
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Be a customer at any high end place. One of my Korean friends regularly comes here on business and he speaks exclusively English at the places he stays, at the high-end restaurants, and with the airlines because he gets better treatment that way.
Even in my podunk town I've had the experience of staff kicking out Koreans to make way for the foreigners in order to put on a big show.
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| Maybe he's just part of the 90% of foreigners here that you identify as "bad human beings." Yeah, that's it. Blame the foreigner for all of Korea's cultural failings. |
But if many other foreigners, some of whom are not in the "apologist" camp, contradict his claims, doesn't that imply that the answer might lie with him.
Are you saying there is ZERO chance this may be because of him? |
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Seoulman69
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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Not to mention a certain % of foreigners who would treat the Korean person worse than another foreigner. But of course on the flip side you'd have the Korea cheerleaders who would treat Koreans better than other foreigners.
Kinda seems like a wash. That being said, there's certainly people who got dealt a bum hand. |
That's fair enough. If 2.75% of the total population in Korea are of other ethnic groups and 10% of them are racist (same as with the Korean group) then 0.275% of the total group would be racist against the Korean man. Compared to the 10% who is racist against the American I'd say the Korean is coming out ahead.
Here's my theory about Korea:
King of the heap are males. The older the better until past 70.
If you are:
female
foreign
dark skinned
poor
disabled
fat
ugly
you are at a distinct disadvantage.
If you are a fat, ugly, dark skinned, poor Korean female married to a foreigner you are fucked. These disadvantages are the same in my home country but not to the same extent as in Korea so let's not use the old "that happens everywhere" excuse. |
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Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Age respect to a foreigner is bullshit. I feel awkward when kids a few years younger than me bow from the hip at lunch. it's annoying. |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Malislamusrex wrote: |
| Age respect to a foreigner is bullshit. I feel awkward when kids a few years younger than me bow from the hip at lunch. it's annoying. |
Right, who gives a shit. It's stupid anyway. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Malislamusrex wrote: |
| Age respect to a foreigner is bullshit. I feel awkward when kids a few years younger than me bow from the hip at lunch. it's annoying. |
I actually agree with this. I also feel uncomfortable when students do that deep bow to me. I really prefer that they not do it. (Except the very youngest kids, just because they look so adorable doing it.) Then again, I feel uncomfortable when waitresses call me 'sir'. I tell them that they can just call me by my given name. Hell, I'm comfortable with my elementary school students calling me by my first name. Doesn't bother me one bit. And I definitely do not want or expect respect from anyone based on my age. But we are in Korea, and age is respected. And I have noticed that it's not doled out equally. I'm not saying, "I'm forty. People should respect my age." That's bullshit, I agree. The whole age thing in Korea gets up my nose. So why start a thread about it? Because it doesn't get up Koreans' noses. It's central to their culture, and when it's applied to everyone around you - but not you - you wonder why. And I think it's a valid observation. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
| Malislamusrex wrote: |
| Age respect to a foreigner is bullshit. I feel awkward when kids a few years younger than me bow from the hip at lunch. it's annoying. |
I actually agree with this. I also feel uncomfortable when students do that deep bow to me. I really prefer that they not do it. (Except the very youngest kids, just because they look so adorable doing it.) Then again, I feel uncomfortable when waitresses call me 'sir'. I tell them that they can just call me by my given name. Hell, I'm comfortable with my elementary school students calling me by my first name. Doesn't bother me one bit. And I definitely do not want or expect respect from anyone based on my age. But we are in Korea, and age is respected. And I have noticed that it's not doled out equally. I'm not saying, "I'm forty. People should respect my age." That's bullshit, I agree. The whole age thing in Korea gets up my nose. So why start a thread about it? Because it doesn't get up Koreans' noses. It's central to their culture, and when it's applied to everyone around you - but not you - you wonder why. And I think it's a valid observation. |
And as I said, its likely because you don't in turn follow those rules yourself. You have made it clear you don't care for them and don't want to be a part of them. You generally don't care for Korean culture.
Why then would anyone be surprised that this aspect of Korean culture isn't shown to them?
Basically, some people want all of the benefits and priviliges of Korean culture with none of the negatives or responsibilities. An understandable desire, and one that should try to exploit for themselves as much as possible, but one shouldn't complain when it doesn't work out. |
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Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with this, even when I'm trying to be polite to the elder I'm sure I'm not doing a good job of it.
I don't particularly want people to come up and bow to me either. I do it because I'm in Korea. What I hate most is the whole, who is senior, is it me? is it you? but I am glad when I can have 'the talk', and establish we can call each other by our first names and be relaxed.
I call that one playing the waygook card.
| Steelrails wrote: |
Basically, some people want all of the benefits and priviliges of Korean culture with none of the negatives or responsibilities. An understandable desire, and one that should try to exploit for themselves as much as possible, but one shouldn't complain when it doesn't work out. |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:22 am Post subject: Re: Foreigners not given the "age respect" thing? |
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| Waygeek wrote: |
| Smithington wrote: |
Why is it that Korea's obsession with respecting one's elders never seems to apply to foreigners? I've seen Koreans get into fist fights over a perceived slight by someone two weeks younger than them. Age is to be respected - unless the older person is a foreigner. Of course the waygookin is expected to comply with Korean culture, respecting older teachers in the school, society etc...but it seems to be a one way street without any reciprocity.
Respecting your elders is a fundamental component of "Korean culture". It just seems to go out the window where whitey is concerned. Seems they can pick and choose which aspects of their culture apply to us, and which don't.
As i said, it seems like a one way street. |
Or it could be that it's just you that doesn't command respect... judging by your posts here I very much doubt you are a shining example of waygookiness. So if you don't get into the culture, look sullen 24/7 and complain about the country 364 days a year the people of that country are hardly gonna dish you out respect are they? |
I think the locals look sullen, and foreigners generally seem pretty happy. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
Just comparing his story to the usual team of apologists always on here, who seem to never notice anything around them or have anything bad happen to them, isn't really telling much. |
I had a bud who lived here for a similar amount of time I did. We both have good things and bad things to say about Korea. BUT... he had tons of BAD experiences that I never have. He was always VERY worried about what people thought of him, and he often found himself in many a confrontation.
For example, we trained together in a gym for a few months. He kept noting how people would stare. "Look, those guys are staring at us/you!" "Those PT don't like you, they're jealous" " You shouldn't move that bench, they keep staring at us". He was so worried about what other people thought, it actually took away from his ability to enjoy what he was doing.
Me? I said fook it. I'm there to train. If someone has a beef with me, let them step up. If not, it's no concern of mine.
Does that make him a hater and me an apologist? Him a shit magnet, and me with a horseshoe up my butt?
Two different people, same situations - but very different perspectives.
In the end, he was very unhappy here. |
Well said and this summarizes my view on things pretty well. |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
Just comparing his story to the usual team of apologists always on here, who seem to never notice anything around them or have anything bad happen to them, isn't really telling much. |
I had a bud who lived here for a similar amount of time I did. We both have good things and bad things to say about Korea. BUT... he had tons of BAD experiences that I never have. He was always VERY worried about what people thought of him, and he often found himself in many a confrontation.
For example, we trained together in a gym for a few months. He kept noting how people would stare. "Look, those guys are staring at us/you!" "Those PT don't like you, they're jealous" " You shouldn't move that bench, they keep staring at us". He was so worried about what other people thought, it actually took away from his ability to enjoy what he was doing.
Me? I said fook it. I'm there to train. If someone has a beef with me, let them step up. If not, it's no concern of mine.
Does that make him a hater and me an apologist? Him a shit magnet, and me with a horseshoe up my butt?
Two different people, same situations - but very different perspectives.
In the end, he was very unhappy here. |
Well said and this summarizes my view on things pretty well. |
High fives all around. Well said CC and Homer. What was said? |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| byrddogs wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
Just comparing his story to the usual team of apologists always on here, who seem to never notice anything around them or have anything bad happen to them, isn't really telling much. |
I had a bud who lived here for a similar amount of time I did. We both have good things and bad things to say about Korea. BUT... he had tons of BAD experiences that I never have. He was always VERY worried about what people thought of him, and he often found himself in many a confrontation.
For example, we trained together in a gym for a few months. He kept noting how people would stare. "Look, those guys are staring at us/you!" "Those PT don't like you, they're jealous" " You shouldn't move that bench, they keep staring at us". He was so worried about what other people thought, it actually took away from his ability to enjoy what he was doing.
Me? I said fook it. I'm there to train. If someone has a beef with me, let them step up. If not, it's no concern of mine.
Does that make him a hater and me an apologist? Him a shit magnet, and me with a horseshoe up my butt?
Two different people, same situations - but very different perspectives.
In the end, he was very unhappy here. |
Well said and this summarizes my view on things pretty well. |
High fives all around. Well said CC and Homer. What was said? |
You can figure that out yourself.  |
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McQwaid
Joined: 18 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:16 am Post subject: |
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I've had interesting experiences with the age/respect culture for Koreans.
I worked for the Korean International School in Hong Kong and when we went on a school trip to the jungles of Borneo this cultural age thing actually became a dangerous situation for us teachers. The student respect for the oldest Korean male trumped the respect and authority of the non-Korean teacher. And safety was the last thing on this Korean teen's mind.
The oldest Korean in the group was also the most difficult to organize. But his Korean peers HAD to follow him and his plans, even more so than the teachers. Even the Hong Kong Chinese kids were intimidated by this.
One Korean kid, who was kind of a loner and more mature and much larger than his Older Korean peers ( high school) did not want anything to do with the age/respect thing on the grounds that he and them were not in Korea.
Well, that did not go over well at all. The elder teen physically challenged him and was quickly overwhelmed with the younger Korean's size. I broke it up and told them that we are not in Korea and you have to respect his choices. They screamed "he would be killed in Korea for this" and demanded that I stay out of it because I was not Korean. It was intense. The Hong Kong Chinese students ( the school body was about half Korean and half Chinese students) were really surprised because the Korean students did not do the Agism thing in school. The jungle was a different story though.
Later that night, I stepped out of the camp cabins to find the rebellious teen, shirtless, repetively bowing on his knees in the mud and rain, apologizing in a chant to his elder Korean, who was standing over him as everyone watched.
We, the teachers, broke it up as if some sort of satanic ritual was going on. Some of the international student females were crying.
As an international teacher it was quite the predicament. But this underscores the importance of Agism in Korean Culture AMUNGST KOREANS. |
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tob55
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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A different side to it, I noticed receiving a great deal more respect from the people (Koreans) I normally associate with once they knew I had received my Korean citizenship. It was noticeable enough for my foreign friends to get upset about, especially when it was in social and business settings where the general response from business people towards foreigners is more cold and non-respectful versus the Korean nationals. Honestly, I am too old to worry about it now  So, if peole want to show me respect or not does not take away from who I am or what I have accomplished in my life. I just try to be as respectful to others as I would have them be towards me. Sometimes they respond, other times they do not, and that is on them, not on me. |
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