| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
I'm With You
Joined: 01 Sep 2011
|
 Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:27 am Post subject: Stand Your Ground Laws - Zimmerman |
 |
|
It seems that the acquittal of George Zimmerman in the killing of unarmed teen Trayvon Martin has raised intense discussion of the "stand your ground" laws inf florida. Stand Your Ground Law.
So if I am able convince a jury that I was "standing my ground" - e.g., imminent death or grievous injury - I am acting lawfully. NO problems with that! However, is there potential for this defense to be abused in court? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
ghostrider
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
Under traditional legal principles, people in disputes generally have a duty to “de-escalate” in the interest of saving human life, but the Florida law dialed down the historic “duty to retreat.” Now, people would have the same kind of right to stand their ground in public — on the streets, in parking lots and in bars — that they historically had in their homes.After gaining a foothold in Florida, the “Stand your ground” movement spread quickly to other states. This legal revolution did not just happen. The National Rifle Association (NRA) and its allies lobbied for the changes heavily, arguing that “Stand your ground” is an important gun right. The lobbying effort paid off. Today, 25 states have passed “Stand your ground” laws.The argument for these laws is that they free people to defend themselves when they reasonably believe they are in danger. The NRA and other supporters argue that state laws that impose a duty to retreat put law-abiding citizens faced with a threat in an unfair position. If they reasonably act to protect themselves, “Stand your ground” supporters say, they will too often be second-guessed by the legal system — and charged with homicide.But critics have pointed out the obvious problem with “Stand your ground” laws. They encourage people who get caught up in dangerous encounters to up the ante and to shoot when gunfire could have been avoided. The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, a pro-gun-control group, has dubbed “Stand your ground” laws “Shoot first” laws. And the National District Attorneys Association (NDAA) has pointed out an oddity of “Stand your ground”: the “blanket immunity” that the Florida law gives to members of the public who fire their guns is actually broader than the leeway the law gives to police, whose job it is to defend public safety.
http://ideas.time.com/2012/04/16/the-growing-movement-to-repeal-stand-your-ground-laws/
I think in a lot of states Zimmerman could have been convicted of something such as imperfect self defense. If he had not chosen to escalate a tense situation a life could have been saved. He should have retreated and let the police handle the matter. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Stand Your Ground Laws - Zimmerman |
|
|
| I'm With You wrote: |
It seems that the acquittal of George Zimmerman in the killing of unarmed teen Trayvon Martin has raised intense discussion of the "stand your ground" laws inf florida. Stand Your Ground Law.
So if I am able convince a jury that I was "standing my ground" - e.g., imminent death or grievous |
The law allows you to use deadly force to prevent imminent death or grevious bodily harm even if you could prevent it by running away. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Stand Your Ground has nothing to do with the Zimmerman case. His self-defense claim would have stood in every state in the US, even those without SYG laws, because he was being restrained at the time of the shooting. There is no option for retreat in that situation, and the duty to retreat is the only thing that SYG addresses.
Also, there's already a thread dedicated to the case over in Current Events. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ghostrider
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| geldedgoat wrote: |
Stand Your Ground has nothing to do with the Zimmerman case. His self-defense claim would have stood in every state in the US, even those without SYG laws, because he was being restrained at the time of the shooting. There is no option for retreat in that situation, and the duty to retreat is the only thing that SYG addresses.
|
True but did he have an opportunity to retreat before Martin attacked him? In some states if someones threatens you and you do not walk away then you can be held legally responsible for injuring or killing that person (even if you were attacked first). Why? Because you had the option of avoiding violence in the first place by simply walking away. The law should not encourage people to be violent. It should be a last resort.
Another thing that is so controversial about Florida's law is that it allows you to not only stand your ground if threatened but also to shoot the person who is threatening you. It's the "shoot first ask questions later" law. No wonder "justifiable" homicides have skyrocket in Florida since the passage of this law. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ghostrider wrote: |
| In some states if someones threatens you and you do not walk away then you can be held legally responsible for injuring or killing that person (even if you were attacked first). |
I'll have to see that before I believe it.
And I really would like to see it, because any place that puts such insanity into law is somewhere I never want to be. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
As a gun owner with a legal CCW permit who carries on a regular basis when home, I have to say that there sure are a lot of ignorant people who believe everything the liberal media feeds them about gun laws and Zimmerman.
Pandering to stupidity and ignorance sure does create clicks. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ghostrider
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| ghostrider wrote: |
| In some states if someones threatens you and you do not walk away then you can be held legally responsible for injuring or killing that person (even if you were attacked first). |
I'll have to see that before I believe it.
And I really would like to see it, because any place that puts such insanity into law is somewhere I never want to be. |
What would be the point of having laws that require you to retreat from a threat if you could violate such laws, kill someone, and have the homicide be ruled justifiable? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So by this...
| ghostrider wrote: |
| In some states if someones threatens you and you do not walk away then you can be held legally responsible for injuring or killing that person (even if you were attacked first). |
...were you simply referring to states that don't have SYG laws? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hellofaniceguy
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: On your computer screen!
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Stand Your Ground Laws - Zimmerman |
|
|
[quote=- I am acting lawfully. NO problems with that! However, is there potential for this defense to be abused in court?[/quote]
One day...it could well be YOU who is reading this..you could find yourself in a similar situation of being fearful for your life...and end up killing someone. Unintentionally.
We can't possibly know what goes on in someone's mind who is defending their life...what may seem an easy fight or overkill to you.... "you could have beat them instead of killing them" type thing........is looked at differently by others.
I would ALWAYS find a person innocent if I am on a jury....it could be me in their spot.
People who are angry because he was found not guilty are angry people anyway and they are just trying to stir up some BS.
But again..I tell anyone who cares to listen...it could well be you in a similar situation.
Stand your ground! Otherwise you just might end up dead! So, which is better....them dead or you? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KOREAN_MAN
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:49 am Post subject: Re: Stand Your Ground Laws - Zimmerman |
|
|
| hellofaniceguy wrote: |
We can't possibly know what goes on in someone's mind who is defending their life...what may seem an easy fight or overkill to you.... "you could have beat them instead of killing them" type thing........is looked at differently by others. |
Okay. So you're saying that Zimmerman is a pu**y. I don't have too much of a problem with him shooting just because he was afraid that a 17-year-old was going to take his life. That's fine with me. But once you kill the teenager, you go to jail. Most people would consider it fair, including black people. If you kill someone because you made a mistake, then you must pay for your mistake.
But Zimmerman walked. If he was really that much of a pu**y, then
No. 1, he should not have been a neighborhood watchman in the first place.
No. 2, he should not have followed someone and chased him.
No. 3, he should have gotten his gun out immediately and fired a warning shot or something.
If you are too scared of young, black teenagers then don't follow them. How would YOU feel about a Korean man following you home here in Korea and killing you with a knife because you started a fight with him? And he gets acquitted b/c he claims self-defense. I'm sure that's not going to be an issue, right? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:09 am Post subject: Re: Stand Your Ground Laws - Zimmerman |
|
|
| KOREAN_MAN wrote: |
| How would YOU feel about a Korean man following you home here in Korea because he judged your behavior to be suspicious, with your demeanor generally matching that of the criminals who had long been victimizing his high-crime neighborhood, and killing you with a knife because you started a fight with him and tried to kill him in the process? |
With those relevant details in mind, I would be guilty of attempted murder, and the Korean man should walk free. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KOREAN_MAN
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:46 am Post subject: Re: Stand Your Ground Laws - Zimmerman |
|
|
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| KOREAN_MAN wrote: |
| How would YOU feel about a Korean man following you home here in Korea because he judged your behavior to be suspicious, with your demeanor generally matching that of the criminals who had long been victimizing his high-crime neighborhood, and killing you with a knife because you started a fight with him and tried to kill him in the process? |
With those relevant details in mind, I would be guilty of attempted murder, and the Korean man should walk free. |
Wow, that's classic. Good job making a fake quote. 
Why was Trayvon Martin suspicious? (Because he was black???) How do you know anything about his demeanor at that night? Did you see what happened with your own eyes or are you trusting George Zimmerman and that he's telling the truth? Of course, he was caught lying on several different occasions. He didn't even testify. I wonder why.
I'm sure many people here would trust a Korean man's story when he kills a white guy from a foreign country and tells the Korean police that his life was in danger and he had no choice but to kill the bad white man. Let's say that the foreigner was walking home with a bag of grocery and the Korean man followed him with a knife. I'm sure you guys would side with the Korean man because he says the white man looked suspicious because it was raining, he was a white man living in Korea, and he was walking too slowly. Yeah, right... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Stand Your Ground Laws - Zimmerman |
|
|
| KOREAN_MAN wrote: |
| Wow, that's classic. Good job making a fake quote. |
I put my additions in bold and then referenced them in my response. That's a common convention and is in no way deceptive, so please don't whine about it.
| Quote: |
| [blah blah] Trayvon Martin [blah blah] George Zimmerman [blah blah] |
Again, the specifics of that case are already being discussed in its own dedicated thread. I suggest you visit and read through it, as it may clear up some of your assumptions and misconceptions about both that specific case and the general concept of guilt/innocence and guilty/not guilty verdicts.
I was trying to speak more broadly about self-defense and when it would be appropriate to invoke it with deadly force. That's why I filled in those gaps in your example, to show that deadly force may indeed be justified.
Now, let's revisit something in your previous post that I missed:
| Quote: |
| [H]e should have gotten his gun out immediately and fired a warning shot or something. |
If you think a warning shot should be fired first, then you must agree with Stand Your Ground laws. Why? If you have the time to fire that warning shot, then you probably have time to retreat to safety. That's why the CCW class I took - in a state that does not have an expansive SYG law - taught that you should never draw your weapon unless you intend to use it, and never fire it unless you intend to destroy whatever you are aiming at. Warning shots are specifically forbidden. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hellofaniceguy
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: On your computer screen!
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: Stand Your Ground Laws - Zimmerman |
|
|
[quote=I don't have too much of a problem with him shooting just because he was afraid that a 17-year-old was going to take his life. That's fine with me. But once you kill the teenager, you go to jail. Most people would consider it fair, including black people. If you kill someone because you made a mistake, then you must pay for your mistake.
If you are too scared of young, black teenagers then don't follow them. How would YOU feel about a Korean man following you home here in Korea and killing you with a knife because you started a fight with him? And he gets acquitted b/c he claims self-defense. I'm sure that's not going to be an issue, right?[/quote]
I am on no ones side....just my opinion.
Zimmer had no idea how old this guy was...you keep making reference to his young age...
What...just because a kid under 18 is killed...one should go to jail?!?!
Shiiitttt! Prisons are full of those under 18 for murder!!!!
Pay for one's mistake...yes....in due course....if you are convicted...pay the price.
All of this is subjected impressions....
until it is YOU in the same situation...you can't judge others....
Don't always believe everything that you....think.
It has been proven that Trayvon threw the first punch....
killing him has nothing to do with being a P@%%y....
The idea of war is not to die for your country...it's to make YOU die for YOUR country...
get in a fist fight, gun fight, whatever fight...I am going to do my very best to take that person out as quickly as I can...if that means breaking their arm/leg...I am going to do it...because I know that the person I am fighting is going to try and do the same to me!
Age has nothing to do with a fight! You have punk azz 14/15/16/17 year olds talking smack all the time about "I'm gonna, I fittin' to kick your azz...blah blah...and many even pull a gun!
So yeah..I get jammed up by someone....I have no idea if he has a gun/knife
and is gonna use it on me! So...take them out quickly! Control the situation. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
