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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
It's an aggravating factor. If you got into a widely-publicized car accident and a legitimate news station started reporting your name as Crash McQueen, which is subsequently rebroadcast by every other network and made a news story in and of itself, you might take issue. |
If I got into a horrible car crash, for which I bore responsibility, and the local news decided to start blaming it on some imaginary guy named Crash McQueen instead, I'd be elated. |
But what if your company was attached to that as well? Suddenly Fox's Delivery Service has drivers such as Crash McQueen and Evel Knievel working for it.
Your company's driver may be responsible, but that doesn't mean your company is staffed by idiots.
| Quote: |
| In what world is this racist? Were they poking fun at Koreans? |
Well here's the thing- Do you think that race entered into the mind of whoever planted those names? It wasn't like it was a mish-mash of names from varying countries, they were ALL 'Asian'.
Was the intent just to make a joke or was there some element of belittling, possibly motivated by race?
Now, some people who laughed at this were not motivated by race. They were motivated by word-play and the like. Others, likely laughed at it as a racial joke. However, that's not the key. The key is the person delivering the joke. Maybe it was just word-play for them as well. Or maybe it was race.
Something else to consider- What image does this conjure to mind? Say, what you will about the pilots, but they still took the issue seriously and were experienced pilots who weren't complete yutzes. Giving them names like that makes it seem like they are 4 idiot Chinamen who are complete clowns.
Also, with jokes there are those where you laugh at, and those where you laugh with. Normally fair play, but when race gets injected into it...
Lastly, a joke can be both racist/racial AND funny. Plenty of people can dish it out and take it. Some people can't. If the situation were reversed and this was a Korean news report, they'd scream bloody murder.
I say cop to it- It's a racist/racial joke, and it's funny. But to say it's not racial or racist? Don't be fake. I'd rather live in a world of free honest jokes. Exceptions of course for those out there that genuinely only paid attention to the word-play. The rest of you, we know what you're laughing at. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
It's an aggravating factor. If you got into a widely-publicized car accident and a legitimate news station started reporting your name as Crash McQueen, which is subsequently rebroadcast by every other network and made a news story in and of itself, you might take issue. |
If I got into a horrible car crash, for which I bore responsibility, and the local news decided to start blaming it on some imaginary guy named Crash McQueen instead, I'd be elated. |
But what if your company was attached to that as well? Suddenly Fox's Delivery Service has drivers such as Crash McQueen and Evel Knievel working for it. |
If we're being honest, I suspect precisely zero potential customers would say, "I heard Fox's Delivery Service employs the like of Crash McQueen, I'll take my business elsewhere!" The actual car accident itself being reported would almost assuredly be the beginning and end of the detrimental impact on my business. A potential customer is not going to look at Asiana and say, "Well, the fact that they just crashed a plane is something I can overlook, but as long as they're hiring people like Captain Sum Ting Wong, I'll go with Korean Air instead." |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
It's an aggravating factor. If you got into a widely-publicized car accident and a legitimate news station started reporting your name as Crash McQueen, which is subsequently rebroadcast by every other network and made a news story in and of itself, you might take issue. |
If I got into a horrible car crash, for which I bore responsibility, and the local news decided to start blaming it on some imaginary guy named Crash McQueen instead, I'd be elated. |
But what if your company was attached to that as well? Suddenly Fox's Delivery Service has drivers such as Crash McQueen and Evel Knievel working for it. |
If we're being honest, I suspect precisely zero potential customers would say, "I heard Fox's Delivery Service employs the like of Crash McQueen, I'll take my business elsewhere!" The actual car accident itself being reported would almost assuredly be the beginning and end of the detrimental impact on my business. A potential customer is not going to look at Asiana and say, "Well, the fact that they just crashed a plane is something I can overlook, but as long as they're hiring people like Captain Sum Ting Wong, I'll go with Korean Air instead." |
I don't think it's that. It's more the general media storm that resulted (a foreseeable outcome), and like I said, it creates a perception that might not have been there.
Say a Mexican airline had this happen. Most stations are reporting the names of the pilots and they are normal Mexican names. People's mental image is one of pilots, maybe making an error, but they are still professionals. You might still fly that airline
Now a station calls your pilots Speedy Gonzalez, the Frito Bandito, and El Gordo. Suddenly people basically get the mental image of four Mexican stereotypes drinking cervezas at the controls while a mariachi band plays in the background.
Not saying they have a firm case, but to say such things don't have an aggravating effect is overlooking how public image works in this 21st century, media-driven society.
You are smart enough to see through such things and base things off of performance. But we're dealing with the consuming public. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| In what world is this racist? Were they poking fun at Koreans? |
Well here's the thing- Do you think that race entered into the mind of whoever planted those names? It wasn't like it was a mish-mash of names from varying countries, they were ALL 'Asian'.
Was the intent just to make a joke or was there some element of belittling, possibly motivated by race?
Now, some people who laughed at this were not motivated by race. They were motivated by word-play and the like. Others, likely laughed at it as a racial joke. However, that's not the key. The key is the person delivering the joke. Maybe it was just word-play for them as well. Or maybe it was race.
Something else to consider- What image does this conjure to mind? Say, what you will about the pilots, but they still took the issue seriously and were experienced pilots who weren't complete yutzes. Giving them names like that makes it seem like they are 4 idiot Chinamen who are complete clowns.
Also, with jokes there are those where you laugh at, and those where you laugh with. Normally fair play, but when race gets injected into it...
Lastly, a joke can be both racist/racial AND funny. Plenty of people can dish it out and take it. Some people can't. If the situation were reversed and this was a Korean news report, they'd scream bloody murder.
I say cop to it- It's a racist/racial joke, and it's funny. But to say it's not racial or racist? Don't be fake. I'd rather live in a world of free honest jokes. Exceptions of course for those out there that genuinely only paid attention to the word-play. The rest of you, we know what you're laughing at. |
The racism angle didn't even occur to me. What I saw was an idiot American reporter who had made an ass of herself. I found the funny part to be the blind American ignorance of Asian names. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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Asiana should sue. Keep in mind folks, Asiana has customers all around the world and I'm sure the Chinese don't appreciate the circus atmosphere that's being created now.
If instead of three Chinese teenagers, three "American" teenagers had died with multiple Americans critically injured I know these jokes would not have been broadcast.
They read the names out loud over the phone to NTSB. This is a TV station in San Franscisco, a place with a lot of Chinese. It's absurd to think they didn't know what they were doing.
The issue isn't whether the prank was funny or not, or whether the TV station is full of racists, that's a non issue here. The real issue is did Asiana suffer a real harm to their reputation. I think a good case can be made for defamation but we'll have to wait for the court decision. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
If instead of three Chinese teenagers, three "American" teenagers had died with multiple Americans critically injured I know these jokes would not have been broadcast. |
Probably not, but that's more likely because the broadcasters would have seen through any name puns utilizing western names than out of any difference in malice or prejudice.
| komerican wrote: |
| They read the names out loud over the phone to NTSB. This is a TV station in San Franscisco, a place with a lot of Chinese. It's absurd to think they didn't know what they were doing. |
Yes, obviously a few broadcasters in lawsuit happy, race-hysteria-abounding America intentionally decided to put their jobs on the line and open their organization to lawsuits for the sake of a pun.
| komerican wrote: |
| The real issue is did Asiana suffer a real harm to their reputation. |
And the answer is no. Does a single person here think less of Asiana over this joke? A single person? It's easy to say, "Oh, people are stupid," but who are these people who:
A) Would have flown Asiana in the first place.
B) Notice something is up with those names.
C) Fail to realize the entire thing was some trick.
D) Are actually somehow upset by these names, such that they cease to fly Asiana.
E) But despite being so upset, never come across a news article informing them that it was all a joke?
I suggest that literally zero people in the entire world -- zero -- fulfill all five conditions. Maybe they can squeeze a little quick cash out of this broadcasting agency with an amoral lawsuit, I don't know, but I do know that their choice to sue over this has lost them at least one potential customer in perpetuity. The plane crash is forgivable, the feigned offense and race hysteria is not. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
Asiana should sue. Keep in mind folks, Asiana has customers all around the world and I'm sure the Chinese don't appreciate the circus atmosphere that's being created now.
If instead of three Chinese teenagers, three "American" teenagers had died with multiple Americans critically injured I know these jokes would not have been broadcast.
They read the names out loud over the phone to NTSB. This is a TV station in San Franscisco, a place with a lot of Chinese. It's absurd to think they didn't know what they were doing. |
America is a nation of ethnic enclaves. It's entirely possible that they have a bunch of white idiots with their thumbs up their asses whose only interaction with Asians is when they go see their dentis, Dr. Kim. "Which Korea are you from, Dr. Kim?" That's not racist, it's stupid and ignorant. I went to a high school that was about fifteen percent Korean and twenty five percent Asian overall, yet I knew plenty of American kids there - usually white - who had nary an Asian friend and were clueless about Asian names. Point being, proximity isn't everything. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
And the answer is no. Does a single person here think less of Asiana over this joke? A single person? It's easy to say, "Oh, people are stupid," but who are these people who:
A) Would have flown Asiana in the first place.
B) Notice something is up with those names.
C) Fail to realize the entire thing was some trick.
D) Are actually somehow upset by these names, such that they cease to fly Asiana.
E) But despite being so upset, never come across a news article informing them that it was all a joke?
I suggest that literally zero people in the entire world -- zero -- fulfill all five conditions. |
But that's based on the premise that consumers make rational economic choices. Consumer choice often is not rational and methodical but impulsive and whimsical. In such choices, subtle, even subliminal, factors can influence choice.
If it's a nice snowy day out I might choose Coke over Pepsi simply because my mind flashes to the Coca-Cola Polar bears. (I drink both and actually choose one or the other under varying circumstances)
Actual circumstances might be someone looking at flights on expedia, seeing Asiana flights, having "Sum Ting Wong" flash in their heads and associate it with the image of 4 idiot Chinamen at the controls playing mah-jong and having thick glasses while screaming for Ms. Golightly, and decide to fly Delta instead, despite Asiana hypothetically having the better safety record. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
And the answer is no. Does a single person here think less of Asiana over this joke? A single person? It's easy to say, "Oh, people are stupid," but who are these people who:
A) Would have flown Asiana in the first place.
B) Notice something is up with those names.
C) Fail to realize the entire thing was some trick.
D) Are actually somehow upset by these names, such that they cease to fly Asiana.
E) But despite being so upset, never come across a news article informing them that it was all a joke?
I suggest that literally zero people in the entire world -- zero -- fulfill all five conditions. |
But that's based on the premise that consumers make rational economic choices. Consumer choice often is not rational and methodical but impulsive and whimsical. In such choices, subtle, even subliminal, factors can influence choice.
If it's a nice snowy day out I might choose Coke over Pepsi simply because my mind flashes to the Coca-Cola Polar bears. (I drink both and actually choose one or the other under varying circumstances) |
Airlines are an exceptionally bad example of this phenomenon, especially international airlines. Their flights are tightly scheduled, there is generally not a lot of competition, and people generally seem to have absolutely rational, concrete reasons for the choices they made, ranging from cost, to the time at which their flight would arrive, to number of layovers, to specific instances of service quality. "Subliminal factors" might be fine when making the decision between near identical products like Coke and Pepsi, but when it's a choice between a direct flight and a flight that has multiple layovers, "Sum Ting Wong" is probably not going to be flashing through your mind.
If Asiana were asked to specifically demonstrate the particular financial damage they would suffer as a result of this, they would fail, and fail hard. The only reason it might hypothetically slide is because of the racial angle, and that's despicable. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
| The real issue is did Asiana suffer a real harm to their reputation. I think a good case can be made for defamation but we'll have to wait for the court decision. |
No chance.
Defamation is a very limited cause of action in the United States. Its not like the expansive Korean concept of defamation.
| Quote: |
| Maybe they can squeeze a little quick cash out of this broadcasting agency with an amoral lawsuit, I don't know, but I do know that their choice to sue over this has lost them at least one potential customer in perpetuity. |
I wouldn't even bother boycotting. This will not go anywhere.
Last edited by Kuros on Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
[quote="Fox"]
| komerican wrote: |
If instead of three Chinese teenagers, three "American" teenagers had died with multiple Americans critically injured I know these jokes would not have been broadcast. |
Probably not, but that's more likely because the broadcasters would have seen through any name puns utilizing western names than out of any difference in malice or prejudice. |
No, even with the same pilots from Asiana we would not be seeing this sort of gallows humor.
| Quote: |
| komerican wrote: |
| They read the names out loud over the phone to NTSB. This is a TV station in San Franscisco, a place with a lot of Chinese. It's absurd to think they didn't know what they were doing. |
Yes, obviously a few broadcasters in lawsuit happy, race-hysteria-abounding America intentionally decided to put their jobs on the line and open their organization to lawsuits for the sake of a pun. |
According to you we would never have lawsuits since obviously people act logically all the time, which is sheer nonsense.
| komerican wrote: |
| The real issue is did Asiana suffer a real harm to their reputation. |
| Quote: |
And the answer is no. Does a single person here think less of Asiana over this joke? A single person? It's easy to say, "Oh, people are stupid," but who are these people who:
A) Would have flown Asiana in the first place.
B) Notice something is up with those names.
C) Fail to realize the entire thing was some trick.
D) Are actually somehow upset by these names, such that they cease to fly Asiana.
E) But despite being so upset, never come across a news article informing them that it was all a joke?
I suggest that literally zero people in the entire world -- zero -- fulfill all five conditions. Maybe they can squeeze a little quick cash out of this broadcasting agency with an amoral lawsuit, I don't know, but I do know that their choice to sue over this has lost them at least one potential customer in perpetuity. The plane crash is forgivable, the feigned offense and race hysteria is not. |
Well you're free to fly any airline you wish.
I don't know what the terms are of California's libel laws. Actually, Asiana here may not even have to prove any of the conditions you’ve listed. A victory in court, even if only a moral one with symbolic damages, would be worth it. Anyway, Asiana still hasn't brought the suit.
Seriously, I don't know why you're so upset. If this airline suffered business related harm, and I do think that mocking their employees, the way the TV station did, before NTSB has made any ruling, can be, at least in some jurisdictions, be construed as libelous. I don't think the case is as farfetched as you make it to be. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
| If this airline suffered business related harm, and I do think that mocking their employees, the way the TV station did, before NTSB has made any ruling, can be, at least in some jurisdictions, be construed as libelous. I don't think the case is as farfetched as you make it to be. |
How will Asiana Airlines show this joke was the cause of the harm?
Asiana Airlines hosted the first airline fatalities in the United States in two years. It broke the US's safety record. But, instead, Asiana Airlines wants us to suppose the loss of business will result from jokes made from the pilot's names? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
Seriously, I don't know why you're so upset. |
Because I don't like that my homeland has devolved into a land of simpering whiners who hyperventilate over this sort of thing? My complaint lies less in your words than in the character which underlies them and in the culture which influenced that character. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
| If this airline suffered business related harm, and I do think that mocking their employees, the way the TV station did, before NTSB has made any ruling, can be, at least in some jurisdictions, be construed as libelous. I don't think the case is as farfetched as you make it to be. |
How will Asiana Airlines show this joke was the cause of the harm?
Asiana Airlines hosted the first airline fatalities in the United States in two years. It broke the US's safety record. But, instead, Asiana Airlines wants us to suppose the loss of business will result from jokes made from the pilot's names? |
It depends on what the California statute says on this. Keep inmind that each state is different in the US, with their own criteria for liability. Asiana may not have to produce reams of statistics showing that that particular broadcast caused specific and measurable harm. All they may need to show is that such and such was broadcast that defamed their employees and prima facie harm would be established.
Also, Asiana may actually be making a moral stand knowing that they have a slim chance of winning, to say that mocking asians will not stand! Again, it won't play well in America, where they are still guffawing over this juvenile joke, but in non-Western countries this may find some resonance. |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
And the answer is no. Does a single person here think less of Asiana over this joke? A single person? It's easy to say, "Oh, people are stupid," but who are these people who:
A) Would have flown Asiana in the first place.
B) Notice something is up with those names.
C) Fail to realize the entire thing was some trick.
D) Are actually somehow upset by these names, such that they cease to fly Asiana.
E) But despite being so upset, never come across a news article informing them that it was all a joke?
I suggest that literally zero people in the entire world -- zero -- fulfill all five conditions. |
But that's based on the premise that consumers make rational economic choices. Consumer choice often is not rational and methodical but impulsive and whimsical. In such choices, subtle, even subliminal, factors can influence choice.
If it's a nice snowy day out I might choose Coke over Pepsi simply because my mind flashes to the Coca-Cola Polar bears. (I drink both and actually choose one or the other under varying circumstances)
Actual circumstances might be someone looking at flights on expedia, seeing Asiana flights, having "Sum Ting Wong" flash in their heads and associate it with the image of 4 idiot Chinamen at the controls playing mah-jong and having thick glasses while screaming for Ms. Golightly, and decide to fly Delta instead, despite Asiana hypothetically having the better safety record. |
A more likely image is the Asiana plane's burned shell on the San Fran tarmac. |
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