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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
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 Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:57 am Post subject: grammar q: there is vs there are |
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"There is a table and a chair in front of the window."
Or: "There are a table and a chair in front of the window."
Seems so basic but according to my research there is much dispute. I find both acceptable but the latter sounds a bit old-school to me. The nearest noun dictates the verb form or the two nouns comprise a plural?
I know its a formulation best avoided altogether, but it came up on a test for public middle-schoolers based on the textbook which asserted "are" was the only right answer. Because I couldnt give a definitive answer, my co-teacher actually got the publisher on the phone. He conceded to my doubt & said future editions would skirt the issue.
Whats your take? |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:16 am Post subject: |
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My take:
You would always say: Sarah and Joe are eating. Never: Sarah and Joe is eating.
So by that rule, you'd be tempted to allow: There are a table and a chair in front of the window.
However, the other option could be taken as "there is a table and (there is) a chair...." making that allowable as well.
In terms of standard usage, "There is x and y...." is much more common. It may be the only grammatically correct form. I don't know. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:18 am Post subject: |
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I think there may be some difference when speaking of people vs objects.
I would never say, there is a boy and girl over there.
I would say, there are a boy and girl over there.
I would say, there is a cup and plate on the table.
I probably would not say, there are a cup and plate on the table.
But that's just me. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by robbie_davies on Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
My take:
You would always say: Sarah and Joe are eating. Never: Sarah and Joe is eating.
So by that rule, you'd be tempted to allow: There are a table and a chair in front of the window.
However, the other option could be taken as "there is a table and (there is) a chair...." making that allowable as well.
In terms of standard usage, "There is x and y...." is much more common. It may be the only grammatically correct form. I don't know. |
It is all to do with singular and plural
So Sarah and Joe are eating - they are both eating therefore plural as the subject is that they are eating together.
There is an apple and an orange on the table - there is one apple and one orange on the table - singular.
There are two oranges and two apples on the table - plural.
So, rule of thumb would be singular - is, plural - are.
But like in most cases - there will be exceptions. |
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War Eagle
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| robbie_davies wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
My take:
You would always say: Sarah and Joe are eating. Never: Sarah and Joe is eating.
So by that rule, you'd be tempted to allow: There are a table and a chair in front of the window.
However, the other option could be taken as "there is a table and (there is) a chair...." making that allowable as well.
In terms of standard usage, "There is x and y...." is much more common. It may be the only grammatically correct form. I don't know. |
It is all to do with singular and plural
So Sarah and Joe are eating - they are both eating therefore plural as the subject is that they are eating together.
There is an apple and an orange on the table - there is one apple and one orange on the table - singular.
There are two oranges and two apples on the table - plural.
So, rule of thumb would be singular - is, plural - are.
But like in most cases - there will be exceptions. |
I agree with this.
In the US we would never say: There are a boy and a girl over there, OR there are a table and chair next to the window. At least not in the last couple hundred years, and I don't think before then either. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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I think it is just a simple rule: in the "There is/are" construction the verb matches whatever the first noun is in the list, and disregards the nature of the others.
There is a husband and wife eating over there.
There are apples, a peach, and some water in the bag.
I'm pretty sure that is all there is to it. Which means the textbook in the OP is incorrect. |
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War Eagle
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
I think it is just a simple rule: in the "There is/are" construction the verb matches whatever the first noun is in the list, and disregards the nature of the others.
There is a husband and wife eating over there.
There are apples, a peach, and some water in the bag.
I'm pretty sure that is all there is to it. Which means the textbook in the OP is incorrect. |
There is a boy and girls on the playground? |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| War Eagle wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
I think it is just a simple rule: in the "There is/are" construction the verb matches whatever the first noun is in the list, and disregards the nature of the others.
There is a husband and wife eating over there.
There are apples, a peach, and some water in the bag.
I'm pretty sure that is all there is to it. Which means the textbook in the OP is incorrect. |
There is a boy and girls on the playground? |
Yep.
BUT, most people would choose to say "There are girls and a boy on the playground" to make it sound more natural. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
| War Eagle wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
I think it is just a simple rule: in the "There is/are" construction the verb matches whatever the first noun is in the list, and disregards the nature of the others.
There is a husband and wife eating over there.
There are apples, a peach, and some water in the bag.
I'm pretty sure that is all there is to it. Which means the textbook in the OP is incorrect. |
There is a boy and girls on the playground? |
Yep.
BUT, most people would choose to say "There are girls and a boy on the playground" to make it sound more natural. |
They wouldn't I don't think, they would probably say 'There are some children on the playground'.
Would anyone say 'There are girls and a boy on the playground' I can't say they would - in all honesty. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| robbie_davies wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
| War Eagle wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
I think it is just a simple rule: in the "There is/are" construction the verb matches whatever the first noun is in the list, and disregards the nature of the others.
There is a husband and wife eating over there.
There are apples, a peach, and some water in the bag.
I'm pretty sure that is all there is to it. Which means the textbook in the OP is incorrect. |
There is a boy and girls on the playground? |
Yep.
BUT, most people would choose to say "There are girls and a boy on the playground" to make it sound more natural. |
They wouldn't I don't think, they would probably say 'There are some children on the playground'.
Would anyone say 'There are girls and a boy on the playground' I can't say they would - in all honesty. |
Well, if you wanted to emphasize that there was a single boy compared to two or more girls, you might.
But that is beside the point though; we are discussing a grammatical rule, not the best way to express specific information about the distribution of young people. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
| robbie_davies wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
| War Eagle wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
I think it is just a simple rule: in the "There is/are" construction the verb matches whatever the first noun is in the list, and disregards the nature of the others.
There is a husband and wife eating over there.
There are apples, a peach, and some water in the bag.
I'm pretty sure that is all there is to it. Which means the textbook in the OP is incorrect. |
There is a boy and girls on the playground? |
Yep.
BUT, most people would choose to say "There are girls and a boy on the playground" to make it sound more natural. |
They wouldn't I don't think, they would probably say 'There are some children on the playground'.
Would anyone say 'There are girls and a boy on the playground' I can't say they would - in all honesty. |
Well, if you wanted to emphasize that there was a single boy compared to two or more girls, you might.
But that is beside the point though; we are discussing a grammatical rule, not the best way to express specific information about the distribution of young people. |
OK - So, if you wanted to emphasise the lone boy amongst the girls on the playground, wouldn't it be better to say 'There is a boy with some girls on the playground'. I am not saying you are wrong or I am right, I think you could use is/are in that particular sentence, depending on context. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
I think it is just a simple rule: in the "There is/are" construction the verb matches whatever the first noun is in the list, and disregards the nature of the others.
There is a husband and wife eating over there.
There are apples, a peach, and some water in the bag.
I'm pretty sure that is all there is to it. Which means the textbook in the OP is incorrect. |
+1
Unless the students are at a very high level, I feel it is best to go with this rule. |
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FMPJ
Joined: 03 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| War Eagle wrote: |
| In the US we would never say: There are a boy and a girl over there, OR there are a table and chair next to the window. At least not in the last couple hundred years, and I don't think before then either. |
The SAT tests exactly this, and according to it (and all other prescriptive grammars I know of) a compound subject (formed with "and") requires a plural verb, even if it's part of a subject-verb inversion. |
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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
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| Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| FMPJ wrote: |
| War Eagle wrote: |
| In the US we would never say: There are a boy and a girl over there, OR there are a table and chair next to the window. At least not in the last couple hundred years, and I don't think before then either. |
The SAT tests exactly this, and according to it (and all other prescriptive grammars I know of) a compound subject (formed with "and") requires a plural verb, even if it's part of a subject-verb inversion. |
Yep, thats exactly the point I was raising. In looking for confirmation one way or the other, I found a lot of grammar sites assert that the plural verb is required. Others dispute this, but I've yet to find any "authoritative" site that states that only the singular verb is correct.
"Sounds right to me" doesnt constitute a rule.
Some of the additional examples above are really awkward. No self-respecting writer would write them & would instead recast the sentence entirely.
Re: the sentences in my OP, I still lean to accepting both constructions as perfectly okay. |
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