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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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 Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:40 am Post subject: |
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| War Eagle wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
I think it is just a simple rule: in the "There is/are" construction the verb matches whatever the first noun is in the list, and disregards the nature of the others.
There is a husband and wife eating over there.
There are apples, a peach, and some water in the bag.
I'm pretty sure that is all there is to it. Which means the textbook in the OP is incorrect. |
There is a boy and girls on the playground? |
This is my understanding:
A: There is a boy and girl on the playground. OK!!
B: There are a boy and girl on the playground. OK!!
C: There is a boy and girls on the playground. NO!!
D: There is a boy and there are girls on the playground. OK!!
When it is plural, then you would have to switch. Conversely,
E: There are girls and there is a boy on the playground. OK!!, but not commonly heard because we get lazy and shorten sentences. Even though correct, it's not used much.
F: There are girls and a boy on the playground. NO!!, but in conversation we don't stop the world and condemn the speaker. So, this is commonly heard even though not technically correct.
If you are teaching for a test answer E would be correct. If you are teaching for daily speaking, then F would be correct.
Last edited by YTMND on Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
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| Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
F: There are girls and a boy on the playground. NO!!. |
Nonsense. That's fine by every rule on this issue.
[YTMND: I was waiting for your comical take on grammar.] |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| schwa wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
F: There are girls and a boy on the playground. NO!!. |
Nonsense. That's fine by every rule on this issue.
[YTMND: I was waiting for your comical take on grammar.] |
Prosecution: Where were you on the night of the 11th?
Witness: I was with my friend and my girlfriend.
Prosecution: The police report shows there were 5 people.
Witness (thinking out loud): Well, ok, there was my friend, myself, my girlfriend, and oh yea, there were two other people who arrived 30 minutes after the shooting. |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| FMPJ wrote: |
| War Eagle wrote: |
| In the US we would never say: There are a boy and a girl over there, OR there are a table and chair next to the window. At least not in the last couple hundred years, and I don't think before then either. |
The SAT tests exactly this, and according to it (and all other prescriptive grammars I know of) a compound subject (formed with "and") requires a plural verb, even if it's part of a subject-verb inversion. |
Well said. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| schwa wrote: |
| FMPJ wrote: |
| War Eagle wrote: |
| In the US we would never say: There are a boy and a girl over there, OR there are a table and chair next to the window. At least not in the last couple hundred years, and I don't think before then either. |
The SAT tests exactly this, and according to it (and all other prescriptive grammars I know of) a compound subject (formed with "and") requires a plural verb, even if it's part of a subject-verb inversion. |
Yep, thats exactly the point I was raising. In looking for confirmation one way or the other, I found a lot of grammar sites assert that the plural verb is required. Others dispute this, but I've yet to find any "authoritative" site that states that only the singular verb is correct.
"Sounds right to me" doesnt constitute a rule.
Some of the additional examples above are really awkward. No self-respecting writer would write them & would instead recast the sentence entirely.
Re: the sentences in my OP, I still lean to accepting both constructions as perfectly okay. |
Why are we hell bent on providing a "rule?" Just tell them o follow the first noun and get on with teaching them how to communicate. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
This is my understanding:
A: There is a boy and girl on the playground. OK!!
B: There are a boy and girl on the playground. OK!!
C: There is a boy and girls on the playground. NO!!
D: There is a boy and there are girls on the playground. OK!!
When it is plural, then you would have to switch. Conversely,
E: There are girls and there is a boy on the playground. OK!!, but not commonly heard because we get lazy and shorten sentences. Even though correct, it's not used much.
F: There are girls and a boy on the playground. NO!!, but in conversation we don't stop the world and condemn the speaker. So, this is commonly heard even though not technically correct.
If you are teaching for a test answer E would be correct. If you are teaching for daily speaking, then F would be correct. |
Pretty much the opposite of what this guy says.
Ever.
About anything. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
This is my understanding:
A: There is a boy and girl on the playground. OK!!
B: There are a boy and girl on the playground. OK!!
C: There is a boy and girls on the playground. NO!!
D: There is a boy and there are girls on the playground. OK!!
When it is plural, then you would have to switch. Conversely,
E: There are girls and there is a boy on the playground. OK!!, but not commonly heard because we get lazy and shorten sentences. Even though correct, it's not used much.
F: There are girls and a boy on the playground. NO!!, but in conversation we don't stop the world and condemn the speaker. So, this is commonly heard even though not technically correct.
If you are teaching for a test answer E would be correct. If you are teaching for daily speaking, then F would be correct. |
Pretty much the opposite of what this guy says.
Ever.
About anything. |
Hitler would be proud of your insightful knowledge. He too wanted things one way. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| FMPJ wrote: |
| War Eagle wrote: |
| In the US we would never say: There are a boy and a girl over there, OR there are a table and chair next to the window. At least not in the last couple hundred years, and I don't think before then either. |
The SAT tests exactly this, and according to it (and all other prescriptive grammars I know of) a compound subject (formed with "and") requires a plural verb, even if it's part of a subject-verb inversion. |
Taken from another messageboard discussion:
| Quote: |
Merriam-Webster's Concise Dictionary of English Usage (far and away the best usage book) says (under "there is, there are"):
...when a compound subject follows the verb and the first element is singular, we find mixed usage—the verb may be either singular or plural. Jesperson 1909-49 (vol. 2) explains the singular verb as a case of attraction of the verb to the first subject, and illustrates it with this from Shakespeare:
There comes an old man, and his three sons —As You Like It, 1600
Penn & Ebbitt 1972 also suggests that many writers feel the plural verb is awkward before a singular noun, and Bryant 1962 cites studies that show the singular verb is much more common in standard English. ... Some writers, however, follow formal agreement and use a plural verb...
In the more complex constructions, you are best guided by your own sense of what sounds right in the particular context to avoid awkwardness and maintain the smooth flow of the sentence.
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
Hitler would be proud of your insightful knowledge. He too wanted things one way. |
This is either the greatest or saddest comment I've ever received. I can't choose which. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| Yes, that man's notoriously dumb. |
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War Eagle
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
| FMPJ wrote: |
| War Eagle wrote: |
| In the US we would never say: There are a boy and a girl over there, OR there are a table and chair next to the window. At least not in the last couple hundred years, and I don't think before then either. |
The SAT tests exactly this, and according to it (and all other prescriptive grammars I know of) a compound subject (formed with "and") requires a plural verb, even if it's part of a subject-verb inversion. |
Taken from another messageboard discussion:
| Quote: |
Merriam-Webster's Concise Dictionary of English Usage (far and away the best usage book) says (under "there is, there are"):
...when a compound subject follows the verb and the first element is singular, we find mixed usage—the verb may be either singular or plural. Jesperson 1909-49 (vol. 2) explains the singular verb as a case of attraction of the verb to the first subject, and illustrates it with this from Shakespeare:
There comes an old man, and his three sons —As You Like It, 1600
Penn & Ebbitt 1972 also suggests that many writers feel the plural verb is awkward before a singular noun, and Bryant 1962 cites studies that show the singular verb is much more common in standard English. ... Some writers, however, follow formal agreement and use a plural verb...
In the more complex constructions, you are best guided by your own sense of what sounds right in the particular context to avoid awkwardness and maintain the smooth flow of the sentence.
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Thanks for that tidbit. So it appears as if both are acceptable. However, I stand by my statement that no one, in the US at least, would ever say: there are a chair and a table next to the window. I would imagine that is very old grammar usage and, in my opinion, one that should not be taught today, at least in the context of that sentence. Languages change and we too must change with them. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
Hitler would be proud of your insightful knowledge. He too wanted things one way. |
This is either the greatest or saddest comment I've ever received. I can't choose which. |
Saddest as all it is just an enforcement of Godwin's Law. |
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Seon-bee
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Location: ROK
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| Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:29 am Post subject: |
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The correct answer is 'there are.' This is an example of an expletive sentence, a sentence with a dummy head + be verb (there is, there are, it is, etc.). The subject is NOT 'there.' Find the real subject and follow traditional S/V agreement rules. In this case it is a compound subject.
Yes, it does sound strange to our ears. That's why colloquial speech allows the freedom to use 'there is.'
It should be noted that expletive sentences are frowned upon as bad style. |
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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
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| Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| Zyzyfer wrote: |
| ... Godwin's Law. |
Ha! Learned a new term today (had to google it) & its so applicable.
transmog: Thank you for the citation. Thats precisely what I was looking for when I posted my question.
Seon-bee: Thanks too, but that just restates the hard line that I was uncomfortable with. It seems there are sufficient grounds to disagree & accept both, both formally & conversationally. |
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Seon-bee
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Location: ROK
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| Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:30 am Post subject: |
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To the prescriptivist English teacher correcting the test and in need of an explanation and "rule," the correct answer to check/circle is "There are." The reason is that it is an expletive construction where the S-V is inverted, with the compound noun requiring a plural verb to agree.
But in descriptive terms, on how language is actually used by real people colloqially (what you see in a corpus), "there is" is legit in that is how it's used.
By now it should be common sense that rules are meant to be broken, especially grammar rules. |
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