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If you're not white and/or unattractive, don't come to Korea
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thebearofbundang
Joined: 02 Sep 2012
Location: Bundang
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 Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:50 am Post subject: |
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It's not just about learning English though. A teacher should be a role model for their students.
My first job in Korea I was asked to follow a veteran teacher around for a day to learn the ropes. The poor guy must have been 5'8 and 215lbs+.. There he was in front of a class of elementary students doing a lesson from the text book about the importance of healthy eating and exercise. I felt bad for the guy, but even more for the students.
I never said anything about eye color, sex, or even pettiness.. Just people who care enough to be able to physically perform the job and care enough to take care of themselves while setting an example about living a healthy lifestyle for their students.. I'm also not talking about people who are 10 lbs overweight here.. |
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thisisausername
Joined: 28 May 2011
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:55 am Post subject: |
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Many really intelligent, dynamic, talented teachers won't be able to make the same impact that they would be able to make in a more tolerant nation. If they're overweight or brown the students and the coteacher will just instantly treat them with less respect than the would elsewhere.
Please watch this video and tell me if you honestly believe Korean kids would say the same thing that these American kids say.
Http://youtu.be/VifdBFp5pnw
I so wish I could get a version of that with Korean subtitles to show my classes. Could any of you here that do that? If I were to transcribe all of the dialogue in the video could any of you translate it into Korean? |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| thisisausername wrote: |
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| So all of these ppl in this thread saying it's not how you're describing it... they must all be out to lunch, right? |
All these people....?
I think a lot of the posters in here agree with me that minorities and unattractive people often have a hard time here. |
And yet lots disagree - and some of those are speaking as "non-whites". so what does that tell us?
That experiences may vary.
That your sweeping condemnation of how korea is... might not be exactly so. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:15 am Post subject: |
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| thebearofbundang wrote: |
I'll say this. If I were to open a private after school academy (either here or on my own country) where my objective was to make money, I would hire physically fit teachers rather than fat ones. The simple truth is that my teachers would represent my business, and if it looks like they can't take care of themselves how could my clients (parents) believe that they could take care of the students. Some teachers who are obese I would imagine have a very difficult time standing and moving around the classroom all day as well.
However, if I were hired to employee teachers for a public school, I would be more likely to hire the most qualified teacher, but I would also take into account the physical condition of the applicant. |
Based on what?
My sister became one of the youngest school principals (headmasters) in the UK when she was fat - she isn't fat now though, she has lost a lot of weight but be advised at her heaviest, she would have buried you and all your prospective thin teachers into the ground.  |
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thebearofbundang
Joined: 02 Sep 2012
Location: Bundang
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| Have a look three posts up.. That's my point-of-view on it.. Teachers should practice what they teach and be role models for their students. Part of that is setting an example about how to live a healthy lifestyle in my opinion. |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| thebearofbundang wrote: |
| Have a look three posts up.. That's my point-of-view on it.. Teachers should practice what they teach and be role models for their students. Part of that is setting an example about how to live a healthy lifestyle in my opinion. |
Does that mean no drinking soju after school during the popular public school dinner meetings?! |
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thisisausername
Joined: 28 May 2011
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
And yet lots disagree - and some of those are speaking as "non-whites". so what does that tell us?
That experiences may vary.
That your sweeping condemnation of how korea is... might not be exactly so. |
Is there more discrimination against non whites in Korea than in the USA or the UK? |
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thebearofbundang
Joined: 02 Sep 2012
Location: Bundang
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:54 am Post subject: |
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In front of students? Of course not.
I'm not talking about just Korea either. I'm talking in general about educators.
I would prefer my son be taught by a teacher that sets a good example while in the presence of their students. That means doesn't show up to class hungover, doesn't smoke around the school or smell like smoke, dresses professionally, and doesn't look like they are eating themselves to death while living a sedentary lifestyle.
I don't think that's too much to ask for considering that teacher will likely have a large influence on my child at a time in his life where he is looking for people to take after. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:59 am Post subject: Re: If you're not white and/or unattractive, don't come to K |
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| cam83 wrote: |
| thegadfly wrote: |
| thisisausername wrote: |
| cam83 wrote: |
Would you mind sharing with us your ethnicity (i.e do you pass for white or Korean). This would help clarify your perspective as to whether you are a person of colour who has experienced these things in Korea or you are basing on hearsay and observation. As a black guy from London who will be going into his 5th year in Seoul, I would like you to clarify this before I respond with further insights regarding the OP.
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I've personally faced discrimination here. I'm gonna leave it at that.I kind of have a personal problem with telling people my race to help them agree with my post. I think the post can stand on it's own no matter what race I am.
I'm glad you're having a good time. I'd guess that you're probably a pretty hot black guy (HBG) though. I think HBG's have a pretty good chance of being well accepted here. |
...so, white?
[i]Actually, no your original post does NOT stand on its own for the reasons cam so eloquently pointed out in his post to which you are responding. It seems disingenuous.
Also, a painfully Konglish interpretation of an infographic about reasons given for suicide in Korea (gathered from the pool of those who left some kind of message behind).
http://cargocollective.com/nuevo/Suicide-Of-South-Korea
Of those Koreans who committed suicide and left an explanation, almost half of them had no hope for the future (and this category likely includes those students who do poorly on exams).
Another quarter of them were afraid of suffering due to illness (the aging population has an increasing suicide rate).
Almost 70% of Korean suicides fall into those categories...and being unattractive doesn't make the top 10...in fact, I couldn't find mention of it in any statistics. Is suicide due to unattractiveness your teapot, Russell? |
You are joking right? Are you seriously saying that if you are white and are giving friendly advice/warning to non-whites... your post would have the same merits as if you were non-white with 1st hand experience? I am your target audience am I not? So if I tell you that it matters to me... then in order for your message to be taken seriously, it should matter to you. I strongly advise you re-read the OP you wrote and ask yourself with an honest heart... "what were my intentions of opening up such a thread?". I'm a minority, and have no issue saying so, in fact, most minorities will openly say so... which does lead me to believe you are white... and I'm sorry you have been discriminated against in Korea, but so have many white people... sadly, that's what usually happens when you are a minority.
So yes, if you are indeed non-white, than I apologise in advance and am willing to debate the issue with you further, however if you are white, you either have an agenda, or are simply looking for a sense of self gratitude.
Ps, I appreciate you replying to the first part of my post but you had nothing more to say on the rest of what I wrote... so is it safe to assume that my argument has destroyed any credibility that you thought existed in what I highlighted? If so, an apology will suffice. |
Um...cam? You seem to be responding to what *I* wrote, but I was agreeing with you, and basically saying what you are saying here...was your response aimed at me, or at thisisausername? |
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Threequalseven
Joined: 08 May 2012
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| thisisausername wrote: |
| Is there more discrimination against non whites in Korea than in the USA or the UK? |
Can't speak for the UK, but I don't think you can compare the US to Korea. Discrimination in the US is institutionalized. There are countless examples of this: bankers refusing to give mortgages in certain neighborhoods to colored families i.e. redlining, the lack of funding that goes into inner-city predominantly black schools, police profiling and brutality, incidences like the Trayvon Martin case, poverty, and so on. Comparatively, discrimination in Korea is pretty topical. Not to say it's not hurtful or difficult, but it is much different. Here's just one example: http://www.upworthy.com/meet-the-17-year-old-who-blew-the-lid-off-racial-profiling-with-his-ipod
| thebearofbundang wrote: |
| I'll say this. If I were to open a private after school academy (either here or on my own country) where my objective was to make money, I would hire physically fit teachers rather than fat ones. The simple truth is that my teachers would represent my business, and if it looks like they can't take care of themselves how could my clients (parents) believe that they could take care of the students. |
Personally, I'd hire teachers akin to the women on the show Nanny 911. Sure, they might not arouse the kid's father like a fit young valley girl would, but they sure won't have any problems whipping some of these insolent little buggers into shape. |
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thisisausername
Joined: 28 May 2011
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| thebearofbundang wrote: |
In front of students? Of course not.
I'm not talking about just Korea either. I'm talking in general about educators.
I would prefer my son be taught by a teacher that sets a good example while in the presence of their students. That means doesn't show up to class hungover, doesn't smoke around the school or smell like smoke, dresses professionally, and doesn't look like they are eating themselves to death while living a sedentary lifestyle.
I don't think that's too much to ask for considering that teacher will likely have a large influence on my child at a time in his life where he is looking for people to take after. |
You know you're right probably the West has become far too accepting of lazy lifestyles. What you've said about overweight people has made me think about it and I agree with you. I used to be about a hundred pounds overweight and it just took changing my eating and exercising to get rid of it.
I'm going to go ahead and say that I've changed my mind with regards to fat people. Perhaps Korea's approach is more appropriate than the Western anything goes even if you're hurting yourself all still lie and tell you that you look great culture.
And this marks the first time that someone on the Internet has successfully changed someone else's mind about anything. Henceforth this day shall be known as Persuasive Tuesday.
Happy Persuasive Tuesday everyone! Somebody should probably go ahead and create the Wikipedia page.
Last edited by thisisausername on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| thisisausername wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
And yet lots disagree - and some of those are speaking as "non-whites". so what does that tell us?
That experiences may vary.
That your sweeping condemnation of how korea is... might not be exactly so. |
Is there more discrimination against non whites in Korea than in the USA or the UK? |
That would be a good question to ask of someone who has had the experience...perhaps someone like cam? Maybe that was why cam asked about your race, to see if you have any first-hand knowledge of which you speak?
I'm a white guy, and I have certainly experienced racism in Korea, and I have also experienced racial privilege in Korea (which is another type of racism -- a bias rather than a prejudice, but still not fair...though not fair in my favor). I think my experiences allow me to better empathize and sympathize with what minorities in my home country may experience, but "better empathize" does NOT mean I am suddenly an authority on the subject, or that I have some kind of magical insight. It just means that I have learned something on a visceral, experiential level that I had already known on an intellectual level. I KNOW how to shoot a free throw, but that does not mean I am able to shoot a free throw with any sort of accuracy.
Trying to warn folks about possible problems is laudable. Presuming to speak for a whole swath of folks is questionable at best, even if you are a part of that swath...and speaking for a group to which you do not belong comes off as patronizing. What if I said that women should avoid Korea, because you ladies can't handle the social situation you will find yourselves in? Wouldn't that come off as disingenuous and possibly misogynistic? (Note: I am NOT saying that -- I'm trying to create a new example. I am not misogynistic! Some of my best friends are women  -- see, self-aware meta jokes!) |
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thisisausername
Joined: 28 May 2011
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:25 am Post subject: |
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Do you think that scientist can only study things through their own personal experience? Do you think it is impossible to know things that you have not personally experienced but have only come to know about through the experience by others? How in the hell do you think that scientific studies are conducted? Do you think the scientist has to take a bunch of Viagra and measure his boners in order to give statistics on viagra's efficiency? Or can he bass his findings on the experiences of other people?
| Quote: |
| HEADLINE: Viagra pulled off the shelves. Researcher didn't experience boners personally. |
Your epistemological position is totally without grounds. I can't know anything about racism in Korea unless I'm black? You're foolish to make such an assertion.[/quote]
Last edited by thisisausername on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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cam83
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| thisisausername wrote: |
Cam, you want me to apologize to you? I don't even understand that.
| Quote: |
| my argument has destroyed any credibility that you thought existed |
You didn't refute anything. The rest of your original post is in total agreement with my point. If minorities come here they will face difficulty. You just think this is a good thing as the struggle can help change the society. It's like being transported back to pre-civil rights America. Now perhaps there are people who would willingly choose to go back in time and help the civil rights movement if such a thing were scientifically possible (a time machine existed). They'd voluntarily put themselves into harms way to help change the society. But they should be informed that that's what they're doing.
Stop making wild paranoid assumptions about my intentions. My intentions are to point out the reality of the situation.
| Quote: |
| So yes, if you are indeed non-white, than I apologise in advance and am willing to debate the issue with you further, however if you are white, you either have an agenda, or are simply looking for a sense of self gratitude. |
Oh I see. So the post should be judge not for it's content but by the skin color of it's author. Brilliant. Very enlightened and progressive way of thinking. |
Wow! I'm not sure if you're are purposefully trying to avoid talking about the main points I mentioned in my first posts, or you simply don't understand them. But I'll try again and please try to engage with what I am saying this time:
1. You said your point was "If minorities come here they will face difficulty" ... but I haven't so you are wrong - so yes, you owe me an apology for making such an ignorant, generalised claim, to which you have just been proven wrong by a minority with a 4+ yr experience in Korea.
2. Your intentions are aimed towards those who are either ugly, fat or non-white correct? And you wanted to point these things out to them to these people. I fall into your target audience, so it is fair to assume that you either; A, have an agenda in order to masturbate your own ego or B, out of the kindness of your heart have taken it upon yourself to offer advice to help/warn helping those who are ugly, non-white or fat. The OP was intended for people like me, surely... and it doesn't read well, which lead to my assumptions... because when you genuinely care about the well-being of others and really want to help, you should be able to take the feedback you receive as an indicator to how well (or not so well) your message is taken.
2. Please don't not use analogies such as the 'time machine', when it has no bearing on the point I made, which was, if more people of colour come to Korea, the younger generations will change their behaviour and in the future will help Korea become more open and multicultural. Do you not think this is a good thing?
3. Should your content be based on your colour? Not entirely, but it is a clear indicator as to your approach and rationale. If you are non-white, then you can speak from personal experience. If you are white... then yes, as a person of colour, it raises questions like the ones I have outlined. I know plenty of white people who offer me great advice, for example when I'm visiting Russia... but they genuinely care for me and my well-being.
But you would have us all believe that you're coming from a place, where you have taking it upon yourself to help people of colour and fat people and ugly people because you are so caring and with a good heart and conscience, don't want us to be subjected to possible racism/discrimination....really? REALLY?! |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| thisisausername wrote: |
Do you think that scientist can only study things through their own personal experience? Do you think it is impossible to know things but you have not personally experienced but I've only been related the experience by others? How in the hell do you think that scientific studies are conducted? Do you think the scientist has to take a bunch of Viagra and measure his boners in order to give statistics on viagra's efficiency?
Your epistemological position is totally without grounds. I can't know anything about racism in Korea unless I'm black? You're foolish to make such an assertion. |
No, I think that because you have experienced racial privilege in your home country, that you are not as cognizant of the racism that exists in your own society, and that this "blind spot" makes your comparison less valid than that of someone without that same hindrance.
Scientific biases taint research and experimental results. It exists, and it is something that needs to be guarded against -- in fact, that is pretty much the reason that double-blind studies exist -- because the observations made by a researcher WILL be informed by the experiences and expectations of that researcher...and the results will be questionable at best.
In addition, there is the whole idea of a "control group." Whites in Korea are NOT the control group...and without the results from the control group, the rest of the data is pretty much useless...so I am saying that if you were non-white, and reporting on your experiences, then that data could be used to interpret what you are claiming is true. Since you are white, that data is ALSO used to interpret what you are claiming, but makes it more likely (in my opinion) that you are making assumptions.
The primary assumptions I see you making are: "I experience more racism in Korea than I experienced in America, therefore, there is more racism in Korea than in America." and "Non-white people experience racism in America, and since I experience more racism in Korea, then they MUST experience more racism in Korea." The one does not necessarily follow from the other. Both assumptions are faulty. It MIGHT follow, or it might not...and so we need to collect data from that group to determine if your conclusions are accurate....
I have walked through many Korean neighborhoods. I have certainly had people gawk and stare openly at me. I haven't ever been approached by a Korean police officer asking me why I was in a certain neighborhood, though. I wouldn't be terrified to be pulled over by a Korean police officer. I could walk into pretty much any Korean bar and order a drink, without fear that the locals might get violent with me. The racism I experience in Korea is less than the racism reported in my home country (USA) by many non-whites...and I really am not sure if it is better for them here or not...which is why we ought to pay attention to what they may have to say on the subject!
Last edited by thegadfly on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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