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beentheredonethat777
Joined: 27 Jul 2013
Location: AsiaHaven
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 Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:20 am Post subject: VALUABLE INFO FOR NEW/INCOMING TEACHERS ,"YOU SHOULD... |
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...go to dinner today after work. You should pay 60,000 won each month for your lunch. You should pay into the teacher's fund. You should probably wear a suit to work. Maybe you should bring a doctor's note.
You should come and have coffee in the teacher's room at 2pm. You should put 30,000 won in this envelope for the bereaved family.
^^ are NOT mere SUGGESTIONS!(When/if uttered in the work place.)
Most Westerners use the secondary meaning of this word; Koreans the first.
_____________________________________________________________
should /SHo͝od/
Verb
1.Used to indicate obligation, duty, or correctness, typically when criticizing someone's actions: "he should have been careful".
2.Indicating a desirable or expected state: "by now students should be able to read".
Synonyms
(a)
shall
(b)
must
(c)
ought to
When this word is uttered by a Korean boss/principal.co-teacher, it most always refers to synonym answer(b)MUST not (C) ought to
IS A COMMAND/ OBLIGATION, not the speaker's mere OPINION/ SUGGESTION.
Recently, a teacher was told she should pay X amount for her lunch each month. She replied, "No. thank you. I always bring my lunch." and an anger filled cultural misunderstanding via verbal spat ensued between her and her co-teacher.
The teacher thought the co-teacher was trying to tell her what to do/force her into an obligation. This was only her second day on the job. Her Korean co-teacher told their boss that she was , in so many words, "being difficult."
She called me, literally crying, and very angry. "Why didn't she just say, you are required to buy/pay for your lunch at school, instead of pretending I had an option in the first place? This doesn't make sense!"*
I explained to her about cultural context of this word "should" combined with the fact that Koreans seldom say NO, even if they want to. Everything is about Harmony and Balance. Statements are ambiguous, at best.
Koreans usually convey ideas indirectly.
If you fail to show up at an event, dinner/meeting. that you only found out about, less than 5 minutes before,
because you already had other plans for the evening and/or because it was presented to you as a "choice "and not as an" obligation", EXPECT less than stellar reactions, frustrations, accusations, reviews.
This will make a whole lot more sense when you're actually here.
Last edited by beentheredonethat777 on Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| Is all this just saying that Koreans use 'should' a lot when they mean 'have to' or are you making a point about obligatory lunch payments? It's a bit confusing. |
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beentheredonethat777
Joined: 27 Jul 2013
Location: AsiaHaven
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| Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| quote="edwardcatflap"]Is all this just saying that Koreans use 'should' a lot when they mean 'have to' or are you making a point about obligatory lunch payments? It's a bit confusing. |
[/quote]
^^.This.Thanks  |
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beentheredonethat777
Joined: 27 Jul 2013
Location: AsiaHaven
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| Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| beentheredonethat777 wrote: |
[
| Quote: |
| quote="edwardcatflap"]Is all this just saying that Koreans use 'should' a lot when they mean 'have to' or are you making a point about obligatory lunch payments? It's a bit confusing. |
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^^.This.Thanks [/quote]
The lunch was just an example of how this word creates confusion for some unsuspecting souls. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:04 am Post subject: Re: VALUABLE INFO FOR NEW/INCOMING TEACHERS ,"YOU SHOUL |
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| beentheredonethat777 wrote: |
...go to dinner today after work. You should pay 60,000 won each month for your lunch. You should pay into the teacher's fund. You should probably wear a suit to work. Maybe you should bring a doctor's note.
You should come and have coffee in the teacher's room at 2pm. You should put 30,000 won in this envelope for the bereaved family.
^^ are NOT mere SUGGESTIONS!(When/if uttered in the work place.)
Most Westerners use the secondary meaning of this word; Koreans the first.
_____________________________________________________________
should /SHo͝od/
Verb
1.Used to indicate obligation, duty, or correctness, typically when criticizing someone's actions: "he should have been careful".
2.Indicating a desirable or expected state: "by now students should be able to read".
Synonyms
(a)
shall
(b)
must
(c)
ought to
When this word is uttered by a Korean boss/principal.co-teacher, it most always refers to synonym answer(b)MUST not (C) ought to
IS A COMMAND/ OBLIGATION, not the speaker's mere OPINION/ SUGGESTION.
Recently, a teacher was told she should pay X amount for her lunch each month. She replied, "No. thank you. I always bring my lunch." and an anger filled cultural misunderstanding via verbal spat ensued between her and her co-teacher.
The teacher thought the co-teacher was trying to tell her what to do/force her into an obligation. This was only her second day on the job. Her Korean co-teacher told their boss that she was , in so many words, "being difficult."
She called me, literally crying, and very angry. "Why didn't she just say, you are required to buy/pay for your lunch at school, instead of pretending I had an option in the first place? This doesn't make sense!"*
I explained to her about cultural context of this word "should" combined with the fact that Koreans seldom say NO, even if they want to. Everything is about Harmony and Balance. Statements are ambiguous, at best.
Koreans usually convey ideas indirectly.
If you fail to show up at an event, dinner/meeting. that you only found out about, less than 5 minutes before,
because you already had other plans for the evening and/or because it was presented to you as a "choice "and not as an" obligation", EXPECT less than stellar reactions, frustrations, accusations, reviews.
This will make a whole lot more sense when you're actually here. |
In current usage "should" means something one ought to do, according to someone's opinion or standard, but that is not obligatory. "Must" is not a synonym for "should."
Koreans should learn to use English correctly.
Westerners need to understand that Koreans do NOT use English correctly, we should anticipate that Koreans don't say in English what they actually mean in Korean, and we should explain to them that "should" does not mean "must" or "have to" but implies an optional situation where one choice may be more adviseable but is not required. |
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beentheredonethat777
Joined: 27 Jul 2013
Location: AsiaHaven
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| Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:36 am Post subject: Re: VALUABLE INFO FOR NEW/INCOMING TEACHERS ,"YOU SHOUL |
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| Quote: |
In current usage "should" means something one ought to do, according to someone's opinion or standard, but that is not obligatory. "Must" is not a synonym for "should."
Koreans should learn to use English correctly.
| Quote: |
| Westerners need to understand that Koreans do NOT use English correctly, we should anticipate that Koreans don't say in English what they actually mean in Korean, and we should explain to them that "should" does not mean "must" or "have to" but implies an optional situation where one choice may be more adviseable but is not required.[/ |
quote] |
This^^ X100!
I tried explaining this to my freshman university students. They were so amazed by my explanation...but, they challenged me to a [b]WORD DUEL(as I have taught them) - a quick look in my Thesaurus, which was perched upon my desk. Guess what? synonyms for should =must. Surprise. So we went online and sure enough, many sources say the same. [/b] |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:06 am Post subject: Re: VALUABLE INFO FOR NEW/INCOMING TEACHERS ,"YOU SHOUL |
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| beentheredonethat777 wrote: |
| Quote: |
In current usage "should" means something one ought to do, according to someone's opinion or standard, but that is not obligatory. "Must" is not a synonym for "should."
Koreans should learn to use English correctly.
| Quote: |
| Westerners need to understand that Koreans do NOT use English correctly, we should anticipate that Koreans don't say in English what they actually mean in Korean, and we should explain to them that "should" does not mean "must" or "have to" but implies an optional situation where one choice may be more adviseable but is not required.[/ |
quote] |
This^^ X100!
I tried explaining this to my freshman university students. They were so amazed by my explanation...but, they challenged me to a [b]WORD DUEL(as I have taught them) - a quick look in my Thesaurus, which was perched upon my desk. Guess what? synonyms for should =must. Surprise. So we went online and sure enough, many sources say the same. [/b] |
Synonyms, especially in a thesaurus, are often similar but not identical in meaning, related, or alternatives with similar usages, rather than words with identical meanings.
According to a good student dictionary:
| Quote: |
should is used ...
1) to show a duty or obligation (You should be doing your homework.)
2) to show something is likely or expected
3_ to show something might happen |
... There is no mention of "must" or a thing required.
| Quote: |
must ...
1) to have to do something
2) something forced or required
3) something definite
4) something you need |
You were correct but your thesaurus was misleading at best. |
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IPayInCash
Joined: 27 Jul 2013
Location: Away from all my board stalkers :)
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| Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:51 am Post subject: |
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Or you can just do what I do: say yea, nod your head a couple times, walk away from them, and ignore whatever they said. Repeat this cycle as many times as necessary for your Korean counterpart to get off your back.
Works like a charm.
Korean coteacher: You should be writing the lesson plans
Me: Yup, *nod head* okay, *walk away*
Next day....
Korean coteacher: You didn't send me the lesson plan! You should send it by today!
Me: Sure, *nod head* *walk away
Never hear her bring it up again.  |
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beentheredonethat777
Joined: 27 Jul 2013
Location: AsiaHaven
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| Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| IPayInCash wrote: |
Or you can just do what I do: say yea, nod your head a couple times, walk away from them, and ignore whatever they said. Repeat this cycle as many times as necessary for your Korean counterpart to get off your back.
Works like a charm.
Korean coteacher: You should be writing the lesson plans
Me: Yup, *nod head* okay, *walk away*
Next day....
Korean coteacher: You didn't send me the lesson plan! You should send it by today!
Me: Sure, *nod head* *walk away
Never hear her bring it up again. |
You've been a very naughty NET! Shame, Shame.  |
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fustiancorduroy
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| IPayInCash wrote: |
Or you can just do what I do: say yea, nod your head a couple times, walk away from them, and ignore whatever they said. Repeat this cycle as many times as necessary for your Korean counterpart to get off your back.
Works like a charm.
Korean coteacher: You should be writing the lesson plans
Me: Yup, *nod head* okay, *walk away*
Next day....
Korean coteacher: You didn't send me the lesson plan! You should send it by today!
Me: Sure, *nod head* *walk away
Never hear her bring it up again. |
Why would you not do your work at work? Aren't you at work in order to work? Not working at work is completely contrary to the idea of going to work in the first place!
Or are public schools just that lax? At my academy, if you don't do your work, the managers will hound you for it until they receive the file. Teachers who keep procrastinating or flat out not doing their work at all will very soon find themselves in need of another job. |
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IPayInCash
Joined: 27 Jul 2013
Location: Away from all my board stalkers :)
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| Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| fustiancorduroy wrote: |
| IPayInCash wrote: |
Or you can just do what I do: say yea, nod your head a couple times, walk away from them, and ignore whatever they said. Repeat this cycle as many times as necessary for your Korean counterpart to get off your back.
Works like a charm.
Korean coteacher: You should be writing the lesson plans
Me: Yup, *nod head* okay, *walk away*
Next day....
Korean coteacher: You didn't send me the lesson plan! You should send it by today!
Me: Sure, *nod head* *walk away
Never hear her bring it up again. |
Why would you not do your work at work? Aren't you at work in order to work? Not working at work is completely contrary to the idea of going to work in the first place!
Or are public schools just that lax? At my academy, if you don't do your work, the managers will hound you for it until they receive the file. Teachers who keep procrastinating or flat out not doing their work at all will very soon find themselves in need of another job. |
I've been renewed twice and given two pay raises as well. You gotta learn to play the game young grasshopper. |
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fustiancorduroy
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| IPayInCash wrote: |
| fustiancorduroy wrote: |
| IPayInCash wrote: |
Or you can just do what I do: say yea, nod your head a couple times, walk away from them, and ignore whatever they said. Repeat this cycle as many times as necessary for your Korean counterpart to get off your back.
Works like a charm.
Korean coteacher: You should be writing the lesson plans
Me: Yup, *nod head* okay, *walk away*
Next day....
Korean coteacher: You didn't send me the lesson plan! You should send it by today!
Me: Sure, *nod head* *walk away
Never hear her bring it up again. |
Why would you not do your work at work? Aren't you at work in order to work? Not working at work is completely contrary to the idea of going to work in the first place!
Or are public schools just that lax? At my academy, if you don't do your work, the managers will hound you for it until they receive the file. Teachers who keep procrastinating or flat out not doing their work at all will very soon find themselves in need of another job. |
I've been renewed twice and given two pay raises as well. You gotta learn to play the game young grasshopper. |
Don't worry. I know the game. I've been in Korea for 7 years, at my current academy for about 3.
Your response just confirms my suspicions: public school positions are lax. As I wrote, my academy will give us work to do. Some teachers try the SNIP method you describe. Those teachers will be asked repeatedly to turn in their work. If they don't meet the deadline, they are asked to stay late on the day of their deadline until they finish their work. Teachers who don't do that -- and there have been a few, but not many -- usually don't last long, maybe 2 or 3 months.
Maybe your and other public schools ask their teachers to do busy work, but places like my academy actually expect you to do it. But then again, you get what you pay for. The teachers I my academy make far more than any public school teacher, even those at the top of the pay scale at a rural school working lots of overtime. If you want to make good money as a teacher here, you can't shirk your duties like you suggest. The places that pay well make you work for your money.
'Nuff said. |
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IPayInCash
Joined: 27 Jul 2013
Location: Away from all my board stalkers :)
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| Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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I dont work at a public school. Wrong again Bob. I love it when people tell me where I work and how much I make.  |
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fustiancorduroy
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| IPayInCash wrote: |
| I dont work at a public school. Wrong again Bob. I love it when people tell me where I work and how much I make. |
That's fine. You don't work at a public school. Nevertheless, the work you do must not be important, because otherwise you couldn't get away without doing it. If you have a job where you can get by doing the least amount of work possible and you're happy there, then congratulations. I'm no hater. But the places that pay a lot of money -- as in more than 5, 6, even 10 million won a month -- aren't gonna tolerate a slacker's attitude. My academy is just one of those places. There are many more like it in Daechi-dong and Apugujeong. For these competitive boutique academies, there is just too much at stake (losing students, worsening their reputation) for them to work with unmotivated teachers. To repeat: to make decent money, you gotta work hard in Korea, just like anywhere else in the world. |
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beentheredonethat777
Joined: 27 Jul 2013
Location: AsiaHaven
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| Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| fustiancorduroy wrote: |
| IPayInCash wrote: |
| I dont work at a public school. Wrong again Bob. I love it when people tell me where I work and how much I make. |
That's fine. You don't work at a public school. Nevertheless, the work you do must not be important, because otherwise you couldn't get away without doing it. If you have a job where you can get by doing the least amount of work possible and you're happy there, then congratulations. I'm no hater. But the places that pay a lot of money -- as in more than 5, 6, even 10 million won a month -- aren't gonna tolerate a slacker's attitude. My academy is just one of those places. There are many more like it in Daechi-dong and Apugujeong. For these competitive boutique academies, there is just too much at stake (losing students, worsening their reputation) for them to work with unmotivated teachers. To repeat: to make decent money, you gotta work hard in Korea, just like anywhere else in the world. |
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Excuse me. As the OP, I think this topic has been seriously derailed. This post was not intended to be about who works where, the hardest, or who is the smartest, or is earning the most won!
This was posted in hopes of assisting new arrivals in Korea. It seems that you all have been here for a while. So, I'm a little confused about the bickering back and forth.
Based upon my experiences, and those of many other teachers, SHOULD and MUST are often the causes for great misunderstandings in both public and private schools. I, too, have lived here for several years, and wanted to pass on some valuable information that I wish someone had shared with me before I arrived.
Once again, if you're this for the first time, please be aware of this cultural English translation. It will make a HUGE difference in your responses/relationships with your co-teachers/boss/ etc. Thanks!
If your boss says you should join him for dinner, it isn't a suggestion, but more of a command. |
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