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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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 Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:38 am Post subject: Russia will enforce anti-gay law during Olympics |
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MOSCOW (AP) — Russia will enforce a new law cracking down on gay rights activism when it hosts international athletes and fans during the 2014 Olympics in Sochi, the country's sports minister said Thursday, appearing to contradict assurances to the contrary from the International Olympic Committee.
Russia's contentious law was signed by President Vladimir Putin in late June, imposing fines on individuals accused of spreading "propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations" to minors, and even proposing penalties for those who express these views online or in the news media. Gay pride rallies also are banned.
"An athlete of nontraditional sexual orientation isn't banned from coming to Sochi," Vitaly Mutko said in an interview with R-Sport, the sports newswire of state news agency RIA Novosti. "But if he goes out into the streets and starts to propagandize, then of course he will be held accountable."
Mutko emphasized that the law wasn't designed to punish anyone for being gay or lesbian. But like the Russian lawmakers who authored the bill, Mutko said athletes would be punished only for propaganda, a word that remains ambiguous under the new law.
"The corresponding law doesn't forbid non-traditional orientation, but other things: propaganda, involvement of minors and the youth."
The law specifies punishment for foreign citizens, to include fines of up to 100,000 rubles ($3,000), time in prison for up to 15 days, deportation and denial of reentry into Russia. Four Dutch citizens working on a documentary film in the northern Russian town of Murmansk were the first foreigners to be detained under the new law, although their case did not make it to court, according to RIA Novosti.
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:42 am Post subject: |
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Openly gay speed skater Blake Skjellerup, who is hoping to represent New Zealand at the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi, Russia, said Wednesday that he is unwilling to play down his sexuality in light of Russia's anti-gay laws.
"I'm going to do my best to be in Russia," Skjellerup told CBSNews.com. "If I'm stopped at the border, I'm stopped at the border. My presence there is going to be important for me and important for the community and I guess we're just going to have to wait and see."
If he makes the 2014 games, which take place in February, Skjellerup is vowing to wear a gay pride pin from the 2012 Olympic games while in Sochi - despite the passage of a law last month banning "propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations," which would seem to include public displays of affection by same-sex partners and statements in support of gay rights. According to Pravda, the law allows for the deportation of foreign nationals for what is deemed to be homosexual propaganda. The Associated Press reported that under the law, foreign nationals could be detained for 15 days before deportation. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Let him wear his gay pride pin, and let Russia prohibit gay pride demonstrations and assemblies.
This is still miles beyond the Beijing Olympics in terms of political expression and leniency. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Let him wear his gay pride pin, and let Russia prohibit gay pride demonstrations and assemblies.
This is still miles beyond the Beijing Olympics in terms of political expression and leniency. |
Yes but Russia is white. 81% white. And very very Christian (that weird icky orthordox kind). Who really cares about China. Little to gain in moral posturing there.
The liberal Hive is A-OK with importing women/gay hating muslims and Africans into white nations but won't be ok with Russia prohibiting the propagandizing of buggery. It's hard to keep it straight.
Russia already said it will not enforce the law during the Olympics.
The internationalist media is going to totally blanket the world in anti-Russian propaganda. The average liberal hive idiot will think this is about buggery when it is really about Putin's brass balls w/r/t Syria and (most importantly) Khodorkovsky. Putin took back resources stolen from the state. That is unforgivable. Imagine if that caught on. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Russia is a sovereign nation and can enact whatever laws it pleases. Citizens who go there for sport should respect the laws of the host nation, even if they disagree with them. If they don't like it, don't enter.
Russia doesn't tell us what laws we should or should not enact. Why do we have any business telling them? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Russia is a sovereign nation and can enact whatever laws it pleases. Citizens who go there for sport should respect the laws of the host nation, even if they disagree with them. If they don't like it, don't enter.
Russia doesn't tell us what laws we should or should not enact. Why do we have any business telling them? |
North Korea is a sovereign nation as well, should we care about their laws? Human rights don't exist outside of ones own borders? That's a pretty hard statement to defend, regardless of how one feels about the law in question. |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Russia is a sovereign nation and can enact whatever laws it pleases. Citizens who go there for sport should respect the laws of the host nation, even if they disagree with them. If they don't like it, don't enter.
Russia doesn't tell us what laws we should or should not enact. Why do we have any business telling them? |
North Korea is a sovereign nation as well, should we care about their laws? Human rights don't exist outside of ones own borders? That's a pretty hard statement to defend, regardless of how one feels about the law in question. |
How about US laws... should we care about what they do and INSIST that they change their laws to conform to our standards or perhaps they too are a sovereign nation and entitled to enact and enforce laws within their own boundaries?
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Russia is a sovereign nation and can enact whatever laws it pleases. Citizens who go there for sport should respect the laws of the host nation, even if they disagree with them. If they don't like it, don't enter.
Russia doesn't tell us what laws we should or should not enact. Why do we have any business telling them? |
North Korea is a sovereign nation as well, should we care about their laws? Human rights don't exist outside of ones own borders? That's a pretty hard statement to defend, regardless of how one feels about the law in question. |
There's a pretty big difference between criticizing/not obeying the laws of a sovereign nation from outside its borders and going there (of your own free will) for some type of event while doing the same thing.
One may be morally commendable...while the other is just plain stupidity.
You lose the moral high ground when you go knowing ahead of time you will not obey the laws there. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Russia is a sovereign nation and can enact whatever laws it pleases. Citizens who go there for sport should respect the laws of the host nation, even if they disagree with them. If they don't like it, don't enter.
Russia doesn't tell us what laws we should or should not enact. Why do we have any business telling them? |
North Korea is a sovereign nation as well, should we care about their laws? Human rights don't exist outside of ones own borders? That's a pretty hard statement to defend, regardless of how one feels about the law in question. |
How about US laws... should we care about what they do and INSIST that they change their laws to conform to our standards or perhaps they too are a sovereign nation and entitled to enact and enforce laws within their own boundaries?
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If American laws violate human rights, or impact other nations, than sure why not. Entitled is not really the right word, they are able to make the law because they can physically carry it out, but In Russia rule of law isn't really that strong and this law will be selectively carried out to meet political goals of those in power, goals which don't include embarrassing Russia during the Olympics. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Russia is a sovereign nation and can enact whatever laws it pleases. Citizens who go there for sport should respect the laws of the host nation, even if they disagree with them. If they don't like it, don't enter.
Russia doesn't tell us what laws we should or should not enact. Why do we have any business telling them? |
North Korea is a sovereign nation as well, should we care about their laws? Human rights don't exist outside of ones own borders? That's a pretty hard statement to defend, regardless of how one feels about the law in question. |
There's a pretty big difference between criticizing/not obeying the laws of a sovereign nation from outside its borders and going there (of your own free will) for some type of event while doing the same thing.
One may be morally commendable...while the other is just plain stupidity.
You lose the moral high ground when you go knowing ahead of time you will not obey the laws there. |
Laws and morality are not the same, and may even contradict each other. If I travel to another country and help a prosecuted person escape the country, I would be breaking the law, but I'd still be walking on the moral high ground.
The idea that Russia would arrest an athletes dueling the Olympics, or even a fan seems pretty remote. This was enacted for domestic political purposes. Also the Olympics is akin in spirit, not law I know, to the UN as an important intl gathering. There isn't any official Olympic immunity like there is diplomatic immunity, but there might as well be. |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| ttompatz wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Russia is a sovereign nation and can enact whatever laws it pleases. Citizens who go there for sport should respect the laws of the host nation, even if they disagree with them. If they don't like it, don't enter.
Russia doesn't tell us what laws we should or should not enact. Why do we have any business telling them? |
North Korea is a sovereign nation as well, should we care about their laws? Human rights don't exist outside of ones own borders? That's a pretty hard statement to defend, regardless of how one feels about the law in question. |
How about US laws... should we care about what they do and INSIST that they change their laws to conform to our standards or perhaps they too are a sovereign nation and entitled to enact and enforce laws within their own boundaries?
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If American laws violate human rights, or impact other nations, than sure why not. |
They routinely do but I don't see any Americans jumping up in any rush to change them.
| Leon wrote: |
Entitled is not really the right word, they are able to make the law because they can physically carry it out, |
That just makes them the biggest bully on the block (on the domestic as well as the international stage).
| Leon wrote: |
| but In Russia rule of law isn't really that strong and this law will be selectively carried out to meet political goals of those in power, goals which don't include embarrassing Russia during the Olympics. |
How was that different that the US for the Atlanta games or their abuses against foreign nationals just for being foreign (Arizona anyone)?
Pot, meet Kettle. Kettle, meet Pot.
Bottom line... when you travel your own laws do NOT go with you.
Violate the laws (whether you agree with them or not) of another nation at your own risk. (think, Michael P. Fay, an American who was publicly canned for the offense of chewing gum).
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| ttompatz wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Russia is a sovereign nation and can enact whatever laws it pleases. Citizens who go there for sport should respect the laws of the host nation, even if they disagree with them. If they don't like it, don't enter.
Russia doesn't tell us what laws we should or should not enact. Why do we have any business telling them? |
North Korea is a sovereign nation as well, should we care about their laws? Human rights don't exist outside of ones own borders? That's a pretty hard statement to defend, regardless of how one feels about the law in question. |
How about US laws... should we care about what they do and INSIST that they change their laws to conform to our standards or perhaps they too are a sovereign nation and entitled to enact and enforce laws within their own boundaries?
. |
If American laws violate human rights, or impact other nations, than sure why not. |
They routinely do but I don't see any Americans jumping up in any rush to change them.
| Leon wrote: |
Entitled is not really the right word, they are able to make the law because they can physically carry it out, |
That just makes them the biggest bully on the block (on the domestic as well as the international stage).
| Leon wrote: |
| but In Russia rule of law isn't really that strong and this law will be selectively carried out to meet political goals of those in power, goals which don't include embarrassing Russia during the Olympics. |
How was that different that the US for the Atlanta games or their abuses against foreign nationals just for being foreign (Arizona anyone)?
Pot, meet Kettle. Kettle, meet Pot.
Bottom line... when you travel your own laws do NOT go with you.
Violate the laws (whether you agree with them or not) of another nation at your own risk. (think, Michael P. Fay, an American who was publicly canned for the offense of chewing gum).
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Why are you using this thread to go after America again? We all know how you feel on the subject, ok? Yes, many Americans are concerned with unjust laws and try to change them. No America and Russia are not the same when it comes to rule of law otherwise there would be a lot more journalists dead and opposition party members in work camps. No Michael P. Fay was not caned for chewing gum, it was for repeated and serious acts of vandalism. When I lived in Singapore I, along with Singaporeans, on occasion chewed gum in public and did not get caned, and anyways the true punishment for gum is a $50 Singapore dollar fine, which would only be enforced if you didn't properly dispose of it. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, but I think that the internal affairs of a nation trump any human rights abuses, provided those abuses do not effect other nations, namely your own.
By meddling in their domestic politics and cultural morality, we make it permissible for them to do the same to us. I do not want Russians interfering in the internal politics of my country and dictating morality.
I think there's a term for this, it's called "The Prime Directive". There's a good reason that in the fictitious Star Trek universe it is General Order #1 and that should apply to real life. No matter how noble one's intentions are, meddling in the development and culture of another people is bad in the long-term.
This struggle is theirs. They must fight it out themselves. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Russia is a sovereign nation and can enact whatever laws it pleases. Citizens who go there for sport should respect the laws of the host nation, even if they disagree with them. If they don't like it, don't enter.
Russia doesn't tell us what laws we should or should not enact. Why do we have any business telling them? |
Wow, that's a pretty absolute position in favor of sovereignty.
I, for one, am happy that Russia has given Snowden asylum.
| Quote: |
| I think there's a term for this, it's called "The Prime Directive". |
Yes. I'm going through Star Trek:TNG on Netflix. Its in the other window now. Let me assure you, the Prime Directive is the worst part about TNG, aside from the holodeck episodes. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
[
Laws and morality are not the same, and may even contradict each other. If I travel to another country and help a prosecuted person escape the country, I would be breaking the law, but I'd still be walking on the moral high ground.
. |
Not in most cases. This hypothetical person could be being prosecuted for a very good reason...namely that he is guilty of a heinous crime.
Also I never said laws and morality are the same thing. But we're not discussing exceptional cases here. We are discussing the advisability of breaking laws in order to push a personal agenda. By and large that's a dumb thing to do in a foreign country and does not carry any moral ground whatsoever with it. |
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