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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:59 am Post subject: Federal Judge Rules Stop And Frisk Unconstitutional |
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Article.
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In the broadest legal decision on the New York Police Department’s stop and frisk program yet, a federal judge ruled on Monday that the program is unconstitutional and violates the Fourth Amendment and 14th Amendment. According to the ruling, the city adopted a policy of indirect racial profiling.
The controversial program has led to 5 million stops of mostly black and Latino men since 2004. People stopped by police were found innocent 90 percent of the time, a statistic that led Judge Shira Scheindlin to note “the policy encourages the targeting of young black and Hispanic men based on their prevalence in local crime complaints. This is a form of racial profiling.”
In her ruling, Scheindlin ordered an independent monitor to ensure NYPD reforms its practices.
The program’s racial bias is staggering: Based on suspicion alone, police have stopped more young black men than the population of young black men in New York. Even so, Mayor Bloomberg has defended the program for disproportionately targeting whites and stopping minorities “too little.”
Bloomberg has already announced he will appeal the ruling. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| Overrule Terry v. Ohio and we can stop looking at the disparate treatment between the races. I know how acknowledging such disparate impact upsets you, Fox. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| short NYC real estate. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
| short NYC real estate. |
I'd say your Libya prediction is better than this one.
(unless you're also factoring and forecasting who the new mayor will be) |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Titus wrote: |
| short NYC real estate. |
I'd say your Libya prediction is better than this one.
(unless you're also factoring and forecasting who the new mayor will be) |
Stop and Frisk is an excellent way to appreciate property values in a city. |
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yodanole
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: La Florida
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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I can't believe that I'm even going to say this, but the police need a little more to work with than just responding to "Amok" reports. Any tool given to law enforcement is at constant risk of being abused. Profiling has a high risk for abuse, but a high reward factor as well. Stereotypes often exist because they are often largely accurate. The real versus the ideal.
Profiling in Korea is difficult because the description "Average height and average build with straight black hair and almond eyes, smelling of soju and kimchi, wearing salaryman uniform" isn't going to help a lot.
Nobody really likes to deal with the cops. But mostly, if you have nothing to hide, it's almost always a mild inconvenience. I have mixed feelings about the issue, but, in the final analysis, I oppose the general concept of free range axe murderers. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| yodanole wrote: |
| Nobody really likes to deal with the cops. But mostly, if you have nothing to hide, it's almost always a mild inconvenience. |
I think it's worse than that. Interactions with the police are genuinely nerve wracking and lingeringly unpleasant. Being stopped by the police with any regularity would be psychologically horrible, and I don't think it should be trivialized.
One of my favorite things about Korea is that the police simply leave you alone. I have more or less concluded that any society with serious, unsolicited police involvement on a day to day basis is simply not one I want to live in. I suspect that Titus is right that in reality, stop & frisk was implemented hoping the people affected by it would feel the exact same way and leave. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| The controversial program has led to 5 million stops of mostly black and Latino men since 2004. People stopped by police were found innocent 90 percent of the time |
Not saying I agree with stop and frisk, but busting 500,000 would be criminals over 10 years is no small feat. |
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yodanole
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: La Florida
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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When the police stop someone regularly and they regularly have nothing to hide, the police move along to easier prey ( usually ). Of course, if you leave your barrio/hood, it's back to square one.
Mario Puzo characterized the relationship between citizen & cop as complicated. "Civilians are at once ward and prey". (paraphrased from "The Godfather". This is so.
Father was a policeman. He once pulled over a guy for a burned out taillight, no big deal, right? Except the man had killed 5 people in Texas. It was Texas, so I'm not saying that they didn't have it coming, but still.... |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| The controversial program has led to 5 million stops of mostly black and Latino men since 2004. People stopped by police were found innocent 90 percent of the time |
Not saying I agree with stop and frisk, but busting 500,000 would be criminals over 10 years is no small feat. |
This is for one of the more recent years.
"Despite the police claims that the stops keep criminals and weapons off the streets, only about 6 percent of stops lead to arrests, and last year, only one in every 879 stops turned up a gun."
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/09/opinion/stop-and-frisk-in-new-york-city.html?_r=0
It would be interesting to see what percent of the arrest was for things like simple marijuana possession. If anyone has Spss they can download and play with the stats here, sadly I don't have it and I'm not sure I remember how to use it anyways.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/analysis_and_planning/stop_question_and_frisk_report.shtml
Also, these numbers are based on paperwork that police fill out after stops, so we have no way of knowing the true number of stops committed. Remember whenever people talk about falling murder rates and this program, that murder rates have been falling everywhere in America. Lastly, random stop and frisk is going to be less effective than being able to work with the community and have a sense of trust so that when a crime is committed, or illegal activity is going on, people can actually turn to the police.
Yodanole, how often have you been stopped by the police? Wondering what kind of perspective you have on this whole thing that you seem so sure about what it's like being stopped. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| yodanole wrote: |
| Nobody really likes to deal with the cops. But mostly, if you have nothing to hide, it's almost always a mild inconvenience. |
I think it's worse than that. Interactions with the police are genuinely nerve wracking and lingeringly unpleasant. Being stopped by the police with any regularity would be psychologically horrible, and I don't think it should be trivialized. |
And we have to remember that the police do not always have our best interests at heart. They have ticket and arrest quotas. They are renown for leading and deceptive questioning.
I'm all for community policing and interaction. But I'm not sure S&F actually gets the police into, and part of, the community. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.city-journal.org/2013/eon0813hm.html
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Safe Streets, Overruled
A judge’s appalling decision will endanger New York’s most vulnerable residents.
13 August 2013
New York’s 20-year reprieve from debilitating violence may well be over. Yesterday, U.S. District Judge Shira Scheindlin ruled that the New York Police Department has been willfully targeting blacks and Hispanics for unlawful stop, question, and frisks based on their skin color alone, in violation of the Constitution. She appointed a federal monitor to oversee the department and to develop new policies to end its allegedly biased policing practices. If the monitor adopts Judge Scheindlin’s definition of unconstitutional policing, it’s not too soon for New Yorkers to start looking into relocation plans.
The key part of Scheindlin’s ruling is her discussion of the stops performed by one of the NYPD’s hardest-working members. Over a three-month period in 2009, the high-crime Fort Greene area of Brooklyn had seen a spate of robberies, burglaries, and gun violence. The robbery victims described their assailants as four to five black males between the ages of 14 and 19; the burglary victims reported the suspect as a Hispanic male in his thirties between five foot eight and five foot nine; and the shooting suspect was described as a black male in his twenties. During that three-month period, Officer Edgar Gonzalez of Brooklyn’s 88th Precinct conducted 134 stops, 128 of which involved black or Hispanic subjects. That stop ratio is consistent not only with the specific crime patterns then afflicting Fort Greene, but also with the overall crime rate in Gonzalez’s precinct. Blacks and Hispanics commit nearly 99 percent of all violent crime in the 88th Precinct and over 93 percent of all crime. In terms of sheer volume, few officers come anywhere close to Gonzalez’s absolute number of stops. (The allegedly draconian stop “quotas” about which the plaintiffs’ attorneys and a few underperforming cops complained during the trial set roughly two stops per month as a performance goal for officers.)
Scheindlin, however, apparently believes that population ratios are the proper benchmark for measuring the legality of stop activity. She points out that Gonzalez’s racial stop rate “far exceeds the percentage of blacks and Hispanics in the local population (60 percent).” In other words, though whites and Asians commit less than 1 percent of violent crime in the 88th Precinct and less than 6 percent of all crime, they should make up 40 percent of all stops—to match their representation in the local population. Never mind that the suspect descriptions that Gonzalez was given identified blacks and Hispanics as the robbery, burglary, and shooting suspects. To avoid an accusation of racial profiling, he should have stopped whites and Asians for crimes committed—according to their victims—exclusively by blacks and Hispanics.
Of course, just because crime victims identify blacks and Hispanics as their assailants doesn’t mean that race should be the primary determinant of who gets stopped —and there is no indication that it is. Thousands of blacks and Hispanics live in Fort Greene; Gonzalez stopped only a small proportion of them, basing his stops on their behavior and local crime information—for example, if they appeared to be casing a victim or burglary target at a time of day and location consistent with the current crime patterns. But it is preposterous to maintain, as Scheindlin does, that when race is included in a suspect’s description for a particular set of crimes, however generalized, it may not form the outer parameter of who gets stopped for those crimes.
The rest of Scheindlin’s opinion is equally blind to the realities of New York crime and policing. She shows little understanding of what it means to live in a high-crime neighborhood, where youths congregating on the corner can be the prelude to gun violence or a street rampage. She has accepted at face value the most far-fetched evidence against the NYPD, such as State Senator Eric Adams’s absurd and uncorroborated accusations against Commissioner Ray Kelly. She has potentially restricted the NYPD’s ability to monitor the performance of its commanders and officers and to make sure that they are actually working to keep the city safe.
The result is not only an insult to the most effective, professionally run police department in the country. It may also signal the end of the freedom from fear that New York’s most vulnerable residents have enjoyed for two decades. |
The end of S&F will result in more dead blacks and Hispanics (and less safe streets and therefore diminishing property values). |
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Threequalseven
Joined: 08 May 2012
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
http://www.city-journal.org/2013/eon0813hm.html
| Quote: |
Safe Streets, Overruled
A judge’s appalling decision will endanger New York’s most vulnerable residents.
13 August 2013
New York’s 20-year reprieve from debilitating violence may well be over. Yesterday, U.S. District Judge Shira Scheindlin ruled that the New York Police Department has been willfully targeting blacks and Hispanics for unlawful stop, question, and frisks based on their skin color alone, in violation of the Constitution. She appointed a federal monitor to oversee the department and to develop new policies to end its allegedly biased policing practices. If the monitor adopts Judge Scheindlin’s definition of unconstitutional policing, it’s not too soon for New Yorkers to start looking into relocation plans.
The key part of Scheindlin’s ruling is her discussion of the stops performed by one of the NYPD’s hardest-working members. Over a three-month period in 2009, the high-crime Fort Greene area of Brooklyn had seen a spate of robberies, burglaries, and gun violence. The robbery victims described their assailants as four to five black males between the ages of 14 and 19; the burglary victims reported the suspect as a Hispanic male in his thirties between five foot eight and five foot nine; and the shooting suspect was described as a black male in his twenties. During that three-month period, Officer Edgar Gonzalez of Brooklyn’s 88th Precinct conducted 134 stops, 128 of which involved black or Hispanic subjects. That stop ratio is consistent not only with the specific crime patterns then afflicting Fort Greene, but also with the overall crime rate in Gonzalez’s precinct. Blacks and Hispanics commit nearly 99 percent of all violent crime in the 88th Precinct and over 93 percent of all crime. In terms of sheer volume, few officers come anywhere close to Gonzalez’s absolute number of stops. (The allegedly draconian stop “quotas” about which the plaintiffs’ attorneys and a few underperforming cops complained during the trial set roughly two stops per month as a performance goal for officers.)
Scheindlin, however, apparently believes that population ratios are the proper benchmark for measuring the legality of stop activity. She points out that Gonzalez’s racial stop rate “far exceeds the percentage of blacks and Hispanics in the local population (60 percent).” In other words, though whites and Asians commit less than 1 percent of violent crime in the 88th Precinct and less than 6 percent of all crime, they should make up 40 percent of all stops—to match their representation in the local population. Never mind that the suspect descriptions that Gonzalez was given identified blacks and Hispanics as the robbery, burglary, and shooting suspects. To avoid an accusation of racial profiling, he should have stopped whites and Asians for crimes committed—according to their victims—exclusively by blacks and Hispanics.
Of course, just because crime victims identify blacks and Hispanics as their assailants doesn’t mean that race should be the primary determinant of who gets stopped —and there is no indication that it is. Thousands of blacks and Hispanics live in Fort Greene; Gonzalez stopped only a small proportion of them, basing his stops on their behavior and local crime information—for example, if they appeared to be casing a victim or burglary target at a time of day and location consistent with the current crime patterns. But it is preposterous to maintain, as Scheindlin does, that when race is included in a suspect’s description for a particular set of crimes, however generalized, it may not form the outer parameter of who gets stopped for those crimes.
The rest of Scheindlin’s opinion is equally blind to the realities of New York crime and policing. She shows little understanding of what it means to live in a high-crime neighborhood, where youths congregating on the corner can be the prelude to gun violence or a street rampage. She has accepted at face value the most far-fetched evidence against the NYPD, such as State Senator Eric Adams’s absurd and uncorroborated accusations against Commissioner Ray Kelly. She has potentially restricted the NYPD’s ability to monitor the performance of its commanders and officers and to make sure that they are actually working to keep the city safe.
The result is not only an insult to the most effective, professionally run police department in the country. It may also signal the end of the freedom from fear that New York’s most vulnerable residents have enjoyed for two decades. |
The end of S&F will result in more dead blacks and Hispanics (and less safe streets and therefore diminishing property values). |
Crime and violence has gone down in most large cities in the USA during the 20 years. S&F was not used in all those cities. Demographics, improved tactics (other than S&F), gentrification, etc have played bigger roles.
I really doubt the murder rate in NYC will rise significantly, if at all, for any groups. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The controversial program has led to 5 million stops of mostly black and Latino men since 2004. People stopped by police were found innocent 90 percent of the time |
Not saying I agree with stop and frisk, but busting 500,000 would be criminals over 10 years is no small feat. |
As Leon said, how many were people having marijuana on them? Or other similar petty busts? 500,000 pot smoker busts doesn't sound that great. |
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