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happiness
Joined: 04 Sep 2010
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 Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| Drop out of all this fluff, and teach kids to be compassionate, proactive, and creative, and youll potentially fix ll these problems with the kids, Stop trying to make a perfect education environment. Crazy, I know. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
In fact, there is already a small but growing segment of the population that has dropped out of the government schools altogether
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I thought the government required school age students to go to school?
My understanding of "Home Schooling" was it was supplementary to regular schooling, not a replacement. |
It may be illegal, but that makes the number of students exercising this option even more impressive. Perhaps this isn't a big thing nationwide, I haven't seen any statistics on this. For a long time there have been families who sent their children to unregistered, hence illegal, alternative private schools. But this new trend of only attending hogwans - in some cases, only attending a single English hogwan and no other school - starkly reveals the failure of the government schools. In any case, Korea has a GED available as an alternative to HS graduation making any illegality moot for the students. |
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Threequalseven
Joined: 08 May 2012
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
There are good teachers within the failed government educational system. They could be even better in a private setting, and by leaving the current bureaucracy behind they would be able to produce far better results and earn more money; many founding or managing their own schools...
Throw in some religious education funded by believers, and religious groups could do it even cheaper also with scholarships for the truly poor. |
Oh no, a republican ESL guru!! Have you ever even worked in a hagwon? A private bureaucracy (or, in more accurate terms, a dictatorship) is no better than a public bureaucracy no matter how you spin it. Many, if not most, successful hagwons use a cookie-cutter method of teaching anyway, so the actual input of the teacher reduced to mechanization. The notion that results at a hagwon are better or that hagwon teachers can or do earn more money is laughable. Lastly, your belief that people who can't afford private school should be forced into religious indoctrination to learn English is quite telling, as you must certainly have blind faith to believe half the things you're saying. |
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Threequalseven
Joined: 08 May 2012
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:10 am Post subject: |
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Here's what I see from this article, which is nothing other than a cheap attempt to justify cuts to the U.S. public education system:
- "[Hagwon teachers] don't have benefits or even a guaranteed base salary"
- "[Hagwon teachers] work long hours and earn less than public school teachers."
- "Each year, Ms. Lee fires about 10% of her instructors."
- "Eight out of 10 South Korean parents say they feel financial pressure from hagwon tuition costs."
- "But are students actually learning more in hagwons? That is a surprisingly hard question to answer." (even though the whole *beep*ing article makes this suggestion anyway.)
- "'The only solution is to improve public education,' says Mr. Kim"
Now here's what I didn't see:
- Any correlation to suggest private "free-market" hagwons cause higher test scores. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| Threequalseven wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
There are good teachers within the failed government educational system. They could be even better in a private setting, and by leaving the current bureaucracy behind they would be able to produce far better results and earn more money; many founding or managing their own schools...
Throw in some religious education funded by believers, and religious groups could do it even cheaper also with scholarships for the truly poor. |
Oh no, a republican ESL guru!! Have you ever even worked in a hagwon? A private bureaucracy (or, in more accurate terms, a dictatorship) is no better than a public bureaucracy no matter how you spin it. Many, if not most, successful hagwons use a cookie-cutter method of teaching anyway, so the actual input of the teacher reduced to mechanization. The notion that results at a hagwon are better or that hagwon teachers can or do earn more money is laughable. Lastly, your belief that people who can't afford private school should be forced into religious indoctrination to learn English is quite telling, as you must certainly have blind faith to believe half the things you're saying. |
Having taught in hogwans, public schools and one university in Korea it is clear that most of the learning of all K-12 subjects in Korea occurs in hogwans, with private at home tutors, or children teaching themselves at home - often a combination of all three. Add in the fact that the best students also have parents who encourage, motivate, support, help teach at home and in some cases push too hard.
The Korean government schools are terrible. This is especially true with English. You will be hard pressed to find any student that has learned anything beyond a simple beginner level in the government schools. In fact, the Korean English teachers are nearly all at the beginner level.
Students with good English skills have all been to hogwans, lived in English speaking countries or had home teachers - often illegal private teachers, even if they won't admit this to you. |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
Having taught in hogwans, public schools and one university in Korea it is clear that most of the learning of all K-12 subjects in Korea occurs in hogwans, with private at home tutors, or children teaching themselves at home... |
I read a thread before debating whether people would sent their kids to public school in Korea. Some were pro, some con. But I always wondered, if you just asked those that had taught at a public school, what would their recommendation be?
Personally, after teaching at public schools here, I could see it up to about Grade 3. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
Having taught in hogwans, public schools and one university in Korea it is clear that most of the learning of all K-12 subjects in Korea occurs in hogwans, with private at home tutors, or children teaching themselves at home... |
I read a thread before debating whether people would sent their kids to public school in Korea. Some were pro, some con. But I always wondered, if you just asked those that had taught at a public school, what would their recommendation be?
Personally, after teaching at public schools here, I could see it up to about Grade 3. |
One of my favorite quotes -
"The measure of a civilization is how it treats its weakest members."
- many people have said similar things and something I really believe.
I've taught in Seoul, and way outside of Seoul. And outside of Seoul, many don't go to hagwons. Public schools are needed. Anyone advocating abolishing public schools in favor for hagwons haven't seen the 20% that live in rural areas.
And also, even if for some 'crazy' reason the government went all private. Korean parents will never ever think their 'school' is good enough. Their would be tiers among hagwons. The debate will cycle on forever, until Korean parents lighten up on how 'smart' their kid is. |
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Threequalseven
Joined: 08 May 2012
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
Having taught in hogwans, public schools and one university in Korea it is clear that most of the learning of all K-12 subjects in Korea occurs in hogwans, with private at home tutors, or children teaching themselves at home - often a combination of all three. Add in the fact that the best students also have parents who encourage, motivate, support, help teach at home and in some cases push too hard.
The Korean government schools are terrible. This is especially true with English. You will be hard pressed to find any student that has learned anything beyond a simple beginner level in the government schools. In fact, the Korean English teachers are nearly all at the beginner level.
Students with good English skills have all been to hogwans, lived in English speaking countries or had home teachers - often illegal private teachers, even if they won't admit this to you. |
If by "encourage, motivate, support, help teach at home and in some cases push too hard" you mean, use their children as status symbols to brag to other housewives about how many different extra-curriculars little Min Hwa is taking, while the kid is so wound up from being forced inside windowless boxes all day he can't concentrate on a thing, and while the vast majority of native hagwon teachers could speak to you at length about how ineffective their curriculum is and they're really just paid to serve as a marketing tool and keep the kids entertained... then you might have a point.
Also, I've spoken to a number of Koreans who have neither lived abroad nor enrolled in a hogwon, including a girl last week at the convenience store and my best Korean friend, and they speak English quite well. Your claim that the only way to learn a second language is through private enterprise is repulsive and absurd. You should probably go back to America and see if Fox News is hiring, because it's clear you aren't concerned about any of the real problems the world is facing. Just another money-loving libertarian who wears his agenda on his sleeve. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Not sure about Commonwealthers, but I have a feeling if you took a bunch of Korean 6th graders, they'd outperform a large number of American NETs at either their 2nd language from schooling back home and/or their Korean skill here. Factor in the fact that most people back home learn a language similar to English like Spanish/French/German and not as dissimilar as Korean to English and it makes the claims about a "failed" Korean language system in comparison to ours seem a little bit hollow.
Course that might be as much a reflection on the American school system and lifestyle, as I'm pretty sure the Canadian and Saffa NETs could smoke both the Koreans and Americans at 2nd language with their commitment to French/Afrikaans, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Brits and Irish were as well. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Not sure about Commonwealthers, but I have a feeling if you took a bunch of Korean 6th graders, they'd outperform a large number of American NETs at either their 2nd language from schooling back home and/or their Korean skill here. Factor in the fact that most people back home learn a language similar to English like Spanish/French/German and not as dissimilar as Korean to English and it makes the claims about a "failed" Korean language system in comparison to ours seem a little bit hollow.
Course that might be as much a reflection on the American school system and lifestyle, as I'm pretty sure the Canadian and Saffa NETs could smoke both the Koreans and Americans at 2nd language with their commitment to French/Afrikaans, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Brits and Irish were as well. |
I agree with most of your post, but I think you are over estimating the abilities of Canadians somewhat. I can't speak about South Africans but I can tell you there are a lot of Canadians who struggle just as much with French as Koreans do with English. |
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denverdeath
Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: Boo-sahn
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| Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Not sure about Commonwealthers, but I have a feeling if you took a bunch of Korean 6th graders, they'd outperform a large number of American NETs at either their 2nd language from schooling back home and/or their Korean skill here. Factor in the fact that most people back home learn a language similar to English like Spanish/French/German and not as dissimilar as Korean to English and it makes the claims about a "failed" Korean language system in comparison to ours seem a little bit hollow.
Course that might be as much a reflection on the American school system and lifestyle, as I'm pretty sure the Canadian and Saffa NETs could smoke both the Koreans and Americans at 2nd language with their commitment to French/Afrikaans, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Brits and Irish were as well. |
I agree with most of your post, but I think you are over estimating the abilities of Canadians somewhat. I can't speak about South Africans but I can tell you there are a lot of Canadians who struggle just as much with French as Koreans do with English. |
have to agree a bit about the cdn thing. although i am pretty good at french(took a lot of extra work and attending summer intensive programmes along w university french), i didn't start learning until grade 5. and that was only a once-a-week class. granted, i know things are a bit better these days, as in the acquisition is earlier and probably somewhat more effective; however, i've spoken to people(around my age) in downtown montreal who can't speak a word of french and have friends who hate french. c'est la vie, hien? a 6th grade korean who has been learning some english since kindergarten is likely going to speak better english than a similar aged albertan will speak french is what i think. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:07 am Post subject: |
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Also, I've spoken to a number of Koreans who have neither lived abroad nor enrolled in a hogwon, including a girl last week at the convenience store and my best Korean friend, and they speak English quite well.
[quote]
I bet they had some private lessons or after-school classes or something else which they are not telling you about.
I have to agree with that the Korean gov't school programs for English
leave a lot to be desired.
In the elementary schools where I worked, the only students who were good at English were those who studied in hagwon or had private tutors.
Perhaps there are better schools in Seoul or larger cities, but in rural Korea the PS English programs certainly don't do enough. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| The South Korean hagwon system is a really startling example of how opening up to the free market and the profit motive does *not* lead to good results in the education sphere - despite this absurd article's attempt to draw the opposite conclusion. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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Whatever hagwons may or may not be, the fact remains that the whole system of hagwons/academies are the result of parents' reaction to a
failing education system.
If the schools did a better job, the hagwon system wouldn't exist. |
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