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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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 Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| shostahoosier wrote: |
| 3DR wrote: |
| seansmith wrote: |
| Is this really up for debate anymore? There was already a lengthy thread on this. Do people seriously debate San Francisco vs. Oakland, Manhattan vs. Buffalo, or Toronto vs. Hamilton? The debate is chiefly among Korean-based teachers who came to Shanghai on a 4 day holiday, or those who have never been to Shanghai. However, teachers (like myself) who've lived in both places for 1 or more years have offered informed opinions. The vast majority of us have stated that Shanghai is better than Seoul in most categories. Shanghai's Achilles Heel is the air pollution situation, which it needs to address if the government hopes to live up to its "Better City, Better Life" slogan. |
I don't know if Shanghai really is better than Seoul because I've never been, but comparing this debate to Manahattan vs Buffalo is simply stupid. |
I don't think so.
Cities like Shanghai (and Tokyo) feel like REAL, world-class, international cities.
Seoul has some nice things here and there, but Shanghai is on a whole other level.
If the Manhattan: Buffalo comparison is too much....then try Manhattan: Pittsuburgh, or Chicago: St. Louis, or Los Angeles: Phoenix.
Seoul is pretty mediocre compared to other world-class mega cities. |
Ever feel unsafe walking around Shanghai at night? Any problems with crime? I like that both Seoul and Tokyo are safe even late at night walking around by yourself.
Just curious, how are the fitness clubs there? They mostly suck in Korea compared to the west. Are there any modern ones in Shanghai or BEijing for that matter? Can you take martial arts there like kung fu in English? |
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fustiancorduroy
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| shostahoosier wrote: |
| 3DR wrote: |
| seansmith wrote: |
| Is this really up for debate anymore? There was already a lengthy thread on this. Do people seriously debate San Francisco vs. Oakland, Manhattan vs. Buffalo, or Toronto vs. Hamilton? The debate is chiefly among Korean-based teachers who came to Shanghai on a 4 day holiday, or those who have never been to Shanghai. However, teachers (like myself) who've lived in both places for 1 or more years have offered informed opinions. The vast majority of us have stated that Shanghai is better than Seoul in most categories. Shanghai's Achilles Heel is the air pollution situation, which it needs to address if the government hopes to live up to its "Better City, Better Life" slogan. |
I don't know if Shanghai really is better than Seoul because I've never been, but comparing this debate to Manahattan vs Buffalo is simply stupid. |
I don't think so.
Cities like Shanghai (and Tokyo) feel like REAL, world-class, international cities.
Seoul has some nice things here and there, but Shanghai is on a whole other level.
If the Manhattan: Buffalo comparison is too much....then try Manhattan: Pittsuburgh, or Chicago: St. Louis, or Los Angeles: Phoenix.
Seoul is pretty mediocre compared to other world-class mega cities. |
Comparing cities is difficult, but that hasn't stopped many organizations from doing so.
According to the GaWC study on global cities, Shanghai (and Tokyo) are "Alpha Plus" cities, the second-highest tier. Seoul is an "Alpha" city, the third-highest tier. So, yes, Shanghai is more globalized than Seoul, but Seoul is still an alpha tier city, beating out all the "Alpha Minus", "Beta", "Gamma", and "Sufficiency" cities.
By the way, Los Angeles is an "Alpha" city, same as Seoul, while Phoenix is a "Gamma" city, a difference of six levels. Better parallels, according to this list, would be Hong Kong Vs. Moscow, Chicago Vs. Jakarta, Dubai Vs. Toronto, etc.
However, in many other lists, Seoul ranks higher than Shanghai, such as in the Global Power City Index, which categorizes cities according to "Economy", "Research & Development", "Cultural Interaction", "Livability", "Environment", and "Accessibility." On this list, Seoul ranks 6th in the world, Shanghai 14th.
You can see all the rankings here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city
Ultimately, what you or I personally feel about Seoul, Shanghai, or any other city are anecdotal experiences. Those are certainly important, but they do not always warrant blanket statements about the quality of life that are not completely true from a more objective standpoint. Shanghai has many cool things going for it, such as a more Western influence, better architecture, etc., that may make it a more enjoyable place for the typical Western English teacher living there. But this does not mean that Seoul is intrinsically a less livable or enjoyable place to be (though perhaps being Korean is a big part of being comfortable in Seoul). If you think Shanghia kicks Seoul's butt in most ways and you're happy living there, then good on you. |
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shostahoosier
Joined: 14 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| fustiancorduroy wrote: |
Comparing cities is difficult, but that hasn't stopped many organizations from doing so.
According to the GaWC study on global cities, Shanghai (and Tokyo) are "Alpha Plus" cities, the second-highest tier. Seoul is an "Alpha" city, the third-highest tier. So, yes, Shanghai is more globalized than Seoul, but Seoul is still an alpha tier city, beating out all the "Alpha Minus", "Beta", "Gamma", and "Sufficiency" cities.
By the way, Los Angeles is an "Alpha" city, same as Seoul, while Phoenix is a "Gamma" city, a difference of six levels. Better parallels, according to this list, would be Hong Kong Vs. Moscow, Chicago Vs. Jakarta, Dubai Vs. Toronto, etc.
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I chose Los Angeles as an example because I wanted to compare cities in a similar region. The list you linked to puts Shanghai on a different tier,and if you look closely, you'll see that Seoul ranks near the bottom of "regular" Alpha cities.
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However, in many other lists, Seoul ranks higher than Shanghai, such as in the Global Power City Index, which categorizes cities according to "Economy", "Research & Development", "Cultural Interaction", "Livability", "Environment", and "Accessibility." On this list, Seoul ranks 6th in the world, Shanghai 14th.
You can see all the rankings here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city |
Any list ranking Seoul above Shanghai must be heavily taking pollution into account. Art, culture, architecture, diversity...Shanghai has Seoul beat.
I've read that Seoul (and Korea) is really unfriendly to foreign businesses and startups. This probably doesn't help .
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| Ultimately, what you or I personally feel about Seoul, Shanghai, or any other city are anecdotal experiences. Those are certainly important, but they do not always warrant blanket statements about the quality of life that are not completely true from a more objective standpoint. Shanghai has many cool things going for it, such as a more Western influence, better architecture, etc., that may make it a more enjoyable place for the typical Western English teacher living there. But this does not mean that Seoul is intrinsically a less livable or enjoyable place to be (though perhaps being Korean is a big part of being comfortable in Seoul). If you think Shanghia kicks Seoul's butt in most ways and you're happy living there, then good on you. |
I agree. Our opinions are all based on anecdotal experiences.
i totally disagree on the bolded part though. I would imagine that part of what makes a city a "global" is that it offers options and amenities that would attract foreigners, Western or Eastern (not just "the typical Western English teacher") and make life comfortable for them. The fact that Seoul is almost exclusively for Koreans makes it "intrinsically a less livable or enjoyable place".
Seoul is for Koreans...which is fine and makes sense....but the fact that it doesn't really offer much more for foreigners will hold it back from being in the same class as Shanghai.
I see pockets of hope in Seoul though.  |
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3DR
Joined: 24 May 2009
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| shostahoosier wrote: |
| fustiancorduroy wrote: |
Comparing cities is difficult, but that hasn't stopped many organizations from doing so.
According to the GaWC study on global cities, Shanghai (and Tokyo) are "Alpha Plus" cities, the second-highest tier. Seoul is an "Alpha" city, the third-highest tier. So, yes, Shanghai is more globalized than Seoul, but Seoul is still an alpha tier city, beating out all the "Alpha Minus", "Beta", "Gamma", and "Sufficiency" cities.
By the way, Los Angeles is an "Alpha" city, same as Seoul, while Phoenix is a "Gamma" city, a difference of six levels. Better parallels, according to this list, would be Hong Kong Vs. Moscow, Chicago Vs. Jakarta, Dubai Vs. Toronto, etc.
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I chose Los Angeles as an example because I wanted to compare cities in a similar region. The list you linked to puts Shanghai on a different tier,and if you look closely, you'll see that Seoul ranks near the bottom of "regular" Alpha cities.
| Quote: |
However, in many other lists, Seoul ranks higher than Shanghai, such as in the Global Power City Index, which categorizes cities according to "Economy", "Research & Development", "Cultural Interaction", "Livability", "Environment", and "Accessibility." On this list, Seoul ranks 6th in the world, Shanghai 14th.
You can see all the rankings here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city |
Any list ranking Seoul above Shanghai must be heavily taking pollution into account. Art, culture, architecture, diversity...Shanghai has Seoul beat.
I've read that Seoul (and Korea) is really unfriendly to foreign businesses and startups. This probably doesn't help .
| Quote: |
| Ultimately, what you or I personally feel about Seoul, Shanghai, or any other city are anecdotal experiences. Those are certainly important, but they do not always warrant blanket statements about the quality of life that are not completely true from a more objective standpoint. Shanghai has many cool things going for it, such as a more Western influence, better architecture, etc., that may make it a more enjoyable place for the typical Western English teacher living there. But this does not mean that Seoul is intrinsically a less livable or enjoyable place to be (though perhaps being Korean is a big part of being comfortable in Seoul). If you think Shanghia kicks Seoul's butt in most ways and you're happy living there, then good on you. |
I agree. Our opinions are all based on anecdotal experiences.
i totally disagree on the bolded part though. I would imagine that part of what makes a city a "global" is that it offers options and amenities that would attract foreigners, Western or Eastern (not just "the typical Western English teacher") and make life comfortable for them. The fact that Seoul is almost exclusively for Koreans makes it "intrinsically a less livable or enjoyable place".
Seoul is for Koreans...which is fine and makes sense....but the fact that it doesn't really offer much more for foreigners will hold it back from being in the same class as Shanghai.
I see pockets of hope in Seoul though. |
You're entitled to your opinion but saying Seoul is for Koreans in this day in age is laughable. Why do you think so many noobs try to teach in Seoul.
Literally everything is in English. You could live in Seoul for years and be able to get around without knowing basic Korean (and I've met people that have sadly done this) |
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shostahoosier
Joined: 14 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| 3DR wrote: |
You're entitled to your opinion but saying Seoul is for Koreans in this day in age is laughable. Why do you think so many noobs try to teach in Seoul.
Literally everything is in English. You could live in Seoul for years and be able to get around without knowing basic Korean (and I've met people that have sadly done this) |
Newbs move to Seoul because the offerings outside of Seoul for foreigners in this day and age are also "laughable".
Foreign English teachers, hardly qualify a city as "global" or even foreign friendly. |
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IPayInCash
Joined: 27 Jul 2013
Location: Away from all my board stalkers :)
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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I actually agree that Seoul is geared strictly for Koreans and only Koreans. Yea... they have english signs so does Tokyo.
I cant speak for Shanghai, but Tokyo has some WORLD CLASS restaurants that are run by some top chefs. You cant say that for Seoul with crappy Italian chains like Sorrento.
Tokyo also has real Western bars. Seoul has Seoul pub, the smelly ESL lifer with a neckbeard that speaks no Korean.
Im willing to wager Shanghai is a lot more foreigner friendly in these same ways Tokyo is over Seoul |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Wow, a city pissing contest debated by foreigners to both cities. |
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Janny
Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Location: all over the place
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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Yes. And?
Are you saying that only principal-born citizens should compare cities?  |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:17 am Post subject: |
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Air Quality: Seoul wins, but keep in mind there are still some bad days in terms of air quality in Seoul and Shanghai does usually have reasonably good air.
Architecture: Shanghai wins hands down. How could it not with the French Quarter and the famous Shanghai Tower and so forth?
Cleanliness: It is basically a tie. Seoul has a much more organized recycling program, but on the other hand, I would say there is not nearly as much spitting in Shanghai as there is in Seoul.
Food from the Grocery Store: Shanghai wins in this category definitely. It is much cheaper than in Seoul and there is a wider variety and availability of fruits.
Friendliness of People: I have heard it argued that the rich Shanghainese can be more snooty compared to Koreans. I do not really agree with that based on my own limited experiences. That said, I would imagine it depends on what social circles you run in due to your specific occupation. Also, it is worth pointing out that many Chinese who live in Shanghai are originally from elsewhere in China. So, to some extent, there is a shared experience by both Chinese and foreigners starting life in Shanghai as outsiders. Due to this along with the fact that Confucianism no longer plays much of a role in society there, it tends to be much easier for Chinese and foreigners to relate to each other. Hence, I would say on a whole, Shanghai tends to be a friendlier city.
Indoor Heating: Seoul wins with the widespread use of ondol heating. That said, it is possible to find this option in Shanghai if you are willing to pay enough rent money.
International Food: Shanghai wins easily, but it is not as if Seoul is not lacking in options. Still, the wide variety of international restaurants in Shanghai cannot be emphasized enough.
Internet Access and Speed: Of course, Seoul wins in this category hands down. That said, aside from some occasional frustrations with VPN's not working as well as one would like, Shanghai generally has fairly decent Internet service.
Local Food: It is a tie. On a whole, I prefer Korean food over the bland Shanghainese and Jiangsu food. On the other hand, there are many other types of much tastier Chinese food that can be easily had in Shanghai such as Sizhuan and Xinjiang food. And of course, Chinese dumplings are usually quite good.
Public Transportation: Seoul wins in this category. This is because Seoul has a slightly more dense and comprehensive subway system. Further, it is easy to use the city buses whereas in Shanghai you really have to be familiar with written Chinese in order to easily navigate the bus system. Finally, the taxi drivers in Seoul are quite knowledgeable and even if they do not know where your destination is, they can immediately figure it out whereas many of the taxi drivers in Shanghai seem to be from elsewhere in China and need very exact directions.
Variety of Job Opportunities: Shanghai wins in this category without a question. In the teaching field alone, there are many opportunities to teach things other than English such as physics, calculus, economics, etc. while in Seoul such jobs for foreigners are fairly scarce although this might be beginning to change. |
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seansmith
Joined: 31 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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The "variety of job opportunities" difference is a major one. There are expats here in every line of work. One friend of mine is a journalist who publishes in the Asian Wall Street Journal and The South China Morning Post. These kinds of people stay here on the mystical "F Visa" which is a business consulting visa but is in reality a catch-all visa for many types of jobs. The Chinese know expats do this but curiously allow it (although there was a crackdown for the 2008 Olympics and the 2010 Expo). The government does want Shanghai to be a global city and to compete with Hong Kong, so perhaps that is the reason they allow it. Regardless, it makes for a much more diverse group of expats than in Seoul.
And now to somewhat flip flop (as Groucho Marx said: "These are my convictions. If you don't like them I have others") Seoul is kind of cool because it is so Korean. You're in an authentic place. Yes, I still think Shanghai is better, and I like it that I can go to Oktoberfest at the Paulaner Brewery, drinking 1 liter beer steins or gluhwein at the German Market with a bunch of Europeans. Or go to an Izakaya owned by a funky Japanese couple. I need that kind of multicultural fix and diversion when I'm in China. But in Seoul, minus a few Itaewon bars, you're immersed in a distinct yet rich monoculture. It's truly foreign and you're truly an "other." There's something appealing about that - for awhile. |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| Wow, a city pissing contest debated by foreigners to both cities. |
What the hell were you expecting out of this thread exactly? You want the locals to chime in on this or what? What has been shared is what the op was asking for. I think the people that have actually lived in both places have given a fair assessment. The only "pissing contest" going on here that I see is from those that can't make a comparison. Do you have any relevant experience to add? |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| byrddogs wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| Wow, a city pissing contest debated by foreigners to both cities. |
What the hell were you expecting out of this thread exactly? You want the locals to chime in on this or what? What has been shared is what the op was asking for. I think the people that have actually lived in both places have given a fair assessment. The only "pissing contest" going on here that I see is from those that can't make a comparison. Do you have any relevant experience to add? |
Haven't lived in Shanghai, but I do like Seoul. Spent time in Tokyo too. Each city has their own charm. I'm sure if I spent more time in Shanghai, I'd like it too. But I don't go around ranking cities... well, unless they have sports teams that compete against each other. |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| byrddogs wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| Wow, a city pissing contest debated by foreigners to both cities. |
What the hell were you expecting out of this thread exactly? You want the locals to chime in on this or what? What has been shared is what the op was asking for. I think the people that have actually lived in both places have given a fair assessment. The only "pissing contest" going on here that I see is from those that can't make a comparison. Do you have any relevant experience to add? |
Haven't lived in Shanghai, but I do like Seoul. Spent time in Tokyo too. Each city has their own charm. I'm sure if I spent more time in Shanghai, I'd like it too. But I don't go around ranking cities... well, unless they have sports teams that compete against each other. |
Yeah, well the op was looking for people (from western backgrounds) that have experience in both places to give insight and comparisons between the two places. That is what those of us that have extensive real time living experience did. We weren't ranking cities, as you say. It appears that those wanting to rank are those people that can't compare the two other than some statistic they found online. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| IPayInCash wrote: |
How is the savings in Shanghai compared to Korea?
In Korea I can save $1000 a month. And go out and eat well at the same time. Is that possible in Shanghai as well? |
Like any other place, it would depend on what kind of job you are at. University pay is low (lots of free time), normal public school pay is pretty low (decent amount of free time), language mill pay is decent (little free time), international school/foreign language school pay is fairly high (good amount of free time). Extra income potential is highly available if one wanted.
With that being said, I'm able to save at least double what you are monthly while still living comfortably. |
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