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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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 Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:21 am Post subject: |
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As a society, we can say that poor people shouldn't have kids, but unless coercion is used, which is ethically problematic and creates it's own set of problems- i.e. China with it's forced abortions and skewed gender balance that is creating it's own disaster, or we can recognize that reproduction is a biological imperative that is built into every living organism. Your stern disapproval isn't going to convince anyone not to have kids.
Also, once the children are born, are we just to stand around and blame the parents, which might make you feel superior for a little while, or should we look for ways to mitigate that poverty. Yes, the current programs have lots of problems, and can create perverse incentives, but to blame social spending for poverty when places that have far more social spending than us also have less poverty and inequality, as well as higher standards of living in general is akin to sticking your head in the sand. Make a compelling case not based on anecdotes that looks at the problem comparatively, i.e how is this problem dealt with in other societies and how is that working out, or don't act so sure of what you believe that you feel comfortable calling for millions of people to ignore one of the strongest biological urges in existence. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Make a compelling case not based on anecdotes that looks at the problem comparatively, i.e how is this problem dealt with in other societies and how is that working out, or don't act so sure of what you believe that you feel comfortable calling for millions of people to ignore one of the strongest biological urges in existence. |
How about South Korea? People here generally don't have children out of wedlock. The birthrate here is very low. Social spending for the poor is also very low. (Now the govenment is increasing social spending in hopes-at least in part- to increase the birthrate.) |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Make a compelling case not based on anecdotes that looks at the problem comparatively, i.e how is this problem dealt with in other societies and how is that working out, or don't act so sure of what you believe that you feel comfortable calling for millions of people to ignore one of the strongest biological urges in existence. |
How about South Korea? People here generally don't have children out of wedlock. The birthrate here is very low. Social spending for the poor is also very low. (Now the govenment is increasing social spending in hopes-at least in part- to increase the birthrate.) |
Well, it's a start at least, but it only really works if you compare it to other countries, and you have to be able to show why things are like they are, I.e the old correlation is not causation bit. Also, it doesn't make a strong case when you so obviously only pick examples that bolster your case. Still it is an improvement from your previous argumentation style.
For example, to argue against your point of view about what causes poverty, I could use something like this study.
"We find quite a strong negative relationship between the level of social expenditure and poverty among 22 OECD countries. Sensitivity analysis shows more or less the same results in case various poverty lines and databases are applied in the analysis. The ageing of the population, unemployment rates and GDP per capita have some explanatory power, but social spending is the driving force as far as differences in poverty levels across countries are concerned. Thus, based on broad data material regarding to the number of countries and time-period, the multivariate approach confirms the results of earlier studies, which were based on a bivariate approach.
Poverty certainly has many driving forces and many dimensions. And several strategies can be followed to tackle poverty. But our results suggest that public income transfers indeed seem to be an effective policy instrument in alleviating poverty."
http://www.ferrykoster.nl/pdf/ijsw-poverty.pdf
Now this is where you try to find some methodological flaw in their research, or a competing study that has different results. No anecdotes personal or otherwise will be accepted, though. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| I haven't read the whole thread - has someone made the point that way too much free money has been given to rich people/corporations, which has mainly served to make them greedier and the whole political system more corrupt - thereby limiting opportunities for poor people to support themselves and their families? |
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liveinkorea316
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Make a compelling case not based on anecdotes that looks at the problem comparatively, i.e how is this problem dealt with in other societies and how is that working out, or don't act so sure of what you believe that you feel comfortable calling for millions of people to ignore one of the strongest biological urges in existence. |
How about South Korea? People here generally don't have children out of wedlock. The birthrate here is very low. Social spending for the poor is also very low. (Now the govenment is increasing social spending in hopes-at least in part- to increase the birthrate.) |
abortion. Wake up man. |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| liveinkorea316 wrote: |
| World Traveler wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Make a compelling case not based on anecdotes that looks at the problem comparatively, i.e how is this problem dealt with in other societies and how is that working out, or don't act so sure of what you believe that you feel comfortable calling for millions of people to ignore one of the strongest biological urges in existence. |
How about South Korea? People here generally don't have children out of wedlock. The birthrate here is very low. Social spending for the poor is also very low. (Now the govenment is increasing social spending in hopes-at least in part- to increase the birthrate.) |
abortion. Wake up man. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| liveinkorea316 wrote: |
| World Traveler wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Make a compelling case not based on anecdotes that looks at the problem comparatively, i.e how is this problem dealt with in other societies and how is that working out, or don't act so sure of what you believe that you feel comfortable calling for millions of people to ignore one of the strongest biological urges in existence. |
How about South Korea? People here generally don't have children out of wedlock. The birthrate here is very low. Social spending for the poor is also very low. (Now the govenment is increasing social spending in hopes-at least in part- to increase the birthrate.) |
abortion. Wake up man. |
This article from four years ago does not divisively counter WT's point - it actually supports it at least once by comparing South Korea to the US with a rather damning statistic - but it does touch on the other issues repressing children being born out of wedlock in Korea, adoption and stigmatization. The article makes it sound like there is some rather severe marginalization of single mothers in Korea (fear of being evicted from your apartment?!?) that does not sit comfortably with me in order to keep the birth rate among single mothers low...particularly given the patriarchal leanings of South Korean society even today. |
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radcon
Joined: 23 May 2011
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| Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| In East Asian cultures there is still a sense of shame that seems to have been lost in the US. In every US city or town there are sane, able bodied teens and twenty somethings sitting on the pavement spare changing. That is something you would never see in Seoul. In the US having a whole gaggle of bastard children is rewarded with higher welfare payments the more kids you have. Again these people feel no shame. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| radcon wrote: |
| In East Asian cultures there is still a sense of shame that seems to have been lost in the US. In every US city or town there are sane, able bodied teens and twenty somethings sitting on the pavement spare changing. That is something you would never see in Seoul. In the US having a whole gaggle of bastard children is rewarded with higher welfare payments the more kids you have. Again these people feel no shame. |
And that is why East Asia will end up owning North America. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:06 am Post subject: |
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Maybe not because the U.S. has long been established as the world's wealthiest country (since 1872)...BUT...Asian Americans have the highest incomes of all racial demographics. Probably because they don't have a chip on their shoulder and the belief they are entitled to reparations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM1_sgOdjA0 |
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Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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slothrop
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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edit
Last edited by slothrop on Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| Zero Hedge is a cooky alternative website (akin to Alex Jones/infowars.com). They've been predicting a bearish market (doom and gloom) for the past five years. They've clearly been wrong. (Stocks are at record breaking highs.) Followers of the site are misinterpreting data. You expect me to take a blog post written by "Tyler Duran" seriously? |
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