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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
To be clear, this is the quote that got the ball rolling on averages
| Julius wrote: |
| Fact: average Korean male behaviour would be unacceptable in most countries of the world. |
I asked what he would consider to be average (Korean) male behaviour.
Never did get a reply. |
1.I never said ejaculating on a womans leg in a subway car was average behaviour.
2.However most usual Korean male behaviour is still often offensive, anti-social or threatening on some level to non-Koreans, certainly to women. Unless you think death stares, qeue-jumping, pushing, shoving, touching strangers, and brazen hoking and spitting are normal.
Because in most of the world, you don't get to strut like a peacock if you behave like a barnyard animal.
And you only get to demand such levels of adulation and attention if you actually are something special.
| Quote: |
My point is, for us to talk about averages, obviously we're going to have to look at statistics. Statistics of this sort of thing may be hard to come by though... so then we drop down to surveys and anecdotal evidence. |
3. Surveys are not classed among "anecdotal" evidence. I posted a governement survey here a couple weeks ago that showed the level of abuse against women in Korea to be abnormally high. Something like more than double the rates for other OECD countries. |
((numbered for convenience))
1. I know. It was another poster. Never said you did.
2. Thank you for answering my question. I was curious which behavior you were referring to. Your examples don't seem to be focused on general actions... not so much "towards women". You do mention touching strangers. Do you think the AVERAGE Korean male goes around touching strangers?
Because other than bumping, I don't notice this. In fact, when it comes to putting their arms/hands on someone here, I'd say really old ladies (and then old men) would take the prize.
3. The surveys you posted, if memory serves, seemed to have varying definitions of "abuse". This was discussed in that thread. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
My question was not "beside the point", it was in reply to this
| Julius wrote: |
| Fact: average Korean male behaviour would be unacceptable in most countries of the world. |
And in a way, goes to the heart of the matter. EVERY male, if this type of proposition goes through, would be banned from certain areas.
Call me funny, but I presume people are innocent until proven guilty. Simply being male does not mean one is guilty of harassing females.
| Quote: |
| .As for average that can be read in more than one way. For example, it can mean run of the mill, nothing special, in that it's just not a few perverts who are involved in these types of acts. That the type of males involved run the gamut, from adolescent to executive. |
Right... that's what I was trying to get at. At what point does this go beyond a few perverts, and into "average/typical" behaviour in a society? As far as my observations go, this type of behaviour is not the norm. It would be considered abnormal by the majority here.
So... are we generally ok with putting restrictions on a certain demographic because of a few butt heads within the group? |
Normally I would say no, but in Korea where laws are rarely enforced regularly, that's how it's done. And I think it's more than a "few butt heads." Common sense says that where there's smoke there's fire.
As for your statement, "the majority here, " by here do you mean this forum or do you mean Korea and Koreans? That women used to, and some still do, carry knitting pins to protect themselves on public transport tells me, at least, that it was fairly typical male behavior. Remember that being drunk was/is an all purpose excuse for any type of misbehavior. Remember typical Korean attitudes regarding women. Remember that per capita South Korea leads the world in porn consumption.
You sneered at my speed bump example on another thread. This is analogous to that. In both cases, those who abide by the law are lumped in with those who don't. Until you have a police force that enforces the laws, that's the probably the best solution. |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| IPayInCash wrote: |
| If you need 1.5 of a subway seat youre definitely overweight. Im looking at the seats right now and every guy can fit into one, and theyre not all thin guys. Hell my dad fits in 1 subway seat and hes ... lets say "American size" |
Are you factoring in shoulders and arms too?
My butt fits in, but I have to lean forward because or my shoulders/arms. |
Same problem on planes, which is why I always take an aisle seat. Let the infrequent flyers fight for the window seats. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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If they ever do implement woman-only subway cars, I bet plenty will use them. If you talk to the women themselves, they'll tell you there is plenty of creepy behavior going on as far as they are concerned: sketchy and aggressive advances, following, aggressive non-stop stares, hand-grabbing, groping, odd conversations, etc.
I don't know how bad it actually is, but enough women likely perceive it to be bad enough many would flock to the woman only cars. Just listening to my girlfriend's near weekly weird subway stories of creepers following her had me tell her "If that happens again, call me and I'll meet you at the station." |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
If they ever do implement woman-only subway cars, I bet plenty will use them. If you talk to the women themselves, they'll tell you there is plenty of creepy behavior going on as far as they are concerned: sketchy and aggressive advances, following, aggressive non-stop stares, hand-grabbing, groping, odd conversations, etc.
I don't know how bad it actually is, but enough women likely perceive it to be bad enough many would flock to the woman only cars. Just listening to my girlfriend's near weekly weird subway stories of creepers following her had me tell her "If that happens again, call me and I'll meet you at the station." |
Yes, if they offered women-only cars, plenty of women would use them. And if they offered elderly-only cars, elderly people would use them. And if they offered Christian-only cars, Christians would use them. What group would turn down an exclusive-use subway car? It's pure benefit: you can still sit in general seating if you want, but you've also got a bunch of seats reserved specifically for your group.
If this is the approach they want to take, just gender segregate. Women won't have to deal with perverts, and men won't have to deal with worrying about a woman freaking out and accusing them of being perverts because he accidentally brushed against her or happened to cross gazes with him. That would be fair and just. Giving women relief from their problem while not doing the same for men, however, is not. |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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I'd feel safer using a woman-only car when traveling on the subway alone, especially in the evening. I'm not some fragile flower, but it's easier not having to be on your guard.
No, I don't think that all—or even most—men are sexual deviants, but it is a safety issue, and, considering the fact that this country does have a high rate of sex crime, why not try to protect women in more immediate ways? The mentality won't change overnight, even though it is surely changing, but if these cars were available tomorrow, I'd use them when alone. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote: |
I'd feel safer using a woman-only car when traveling on the subway alone, especially in the evening. I'm not some fragile flower, but it's easier not having to be on your guard.
No, I don't think that all—or even most—men are sexual deviants, but it is a safety issue, and, considering the fact that this country does have a high rate of sex crime, why not try to protect women in more immediate ways? The mentality won't change overnight, even though it is surely changing, but if these cars were available tomorrow, I'd use them when alone. |
IMO, the better protection would be severe punishment for those caught. I truly believe that it is a small minority of men who act this way - yet they cause wide spread discomfort. If those men were harshly dealt with on their first offence, we'd have lower cases of recidivism. No more "men are different. They have nEEDS", or "he was drunk" excuses. Punish them, and take them out of society until they're able to behave.
Now, that might be more difficult than just assigning subway cars... but to me, it'd be more just.
| atwood wrote: |
| Quote: |
| So... are we generally ok with putting restrictions on a certain demographic because of a few butt heads within the group? |
Normally I would say no, but in Korea where laws are rarely enforced regularly, that's how it's done. And I think it's more than a "few butt heads." Common sense says that where there's smoke there's fire.
As for your statement, "the majority here, " by here do you mean this forum or do you mean Korea and Koreans? That women used to, and some still do, carry knitting pins to protect themselves on public transport tells me, at least, that it was fairly typical male behavior. Remember that being drunk was/is an all purpose excuse for any type of misbehavior. Remember typical Korean attitudes regarding women. Remember that per capita South Korea leads the world in porn consumption.
You sneered at my speed bump example on another thread. This is analogous to that. In both cases, those who abide by the law are lumped in with those who don't. Until you have a police force that enforces the laws, that's the probably the best solution. |
Little fires can make a lot of smoke. One guy doing this sort of thing can cause a lot of damage to a lot of women/people. I agree with you about the lax enforcement, but believe that's the area that needs to be addressed.
As for your things you're wanting me to "remember", I'm not sure porn consumption has a direct correlation to rapes/assaults. In fact, I seem to recall a post in Current Events showing a study out of northern europe citing the opposite.
Either way, I still challenge anyone who says this is "typical male behaviour" here. To me, typical means the majority, usual, most. And I don't see that being the case. |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote: |
I'd feel safer using a woman-only car when traveling on the subway alone, especially in the evening. I'm not some fragile flower, but it's easier not having to be on your guard.
No, I don't think that all—or even most—men are sexual deviants, but it is a safety issue, and, considering the fact that this country does have a high rate of sex crime, why not try to protect women in more immediate ways? The mentality won't change overnight, even though it is surely changing, but if these cars were available tomorrow, I'd use them when alone. |
IMO, the better protection would be severe punishment for those caught. I truly believe that it is a small minority of men who act this way - yet they cause wide spread discomfort. If those men were harshly dealt with on their first offence, we'd have lower cases of recidivism. No more "men are different. They have nEEDS", or "he was drunk" excuses. Punish them, and take them out of society until they're able to behave.
Now, that might be more difficult than just assigning subway cars... but to me, it'd be more just. |
I agree that it would be far more just to just have harsher punishment for the few males who do cause the level of unease. As it is, it likely won't happen for a while, the way the police work here, so that's why I said that the subway car thing is at least a fix that could be implemented quickly, while everything else slowly catches up. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote: |
I agree that it would be far more just to just have harsher punishment for the few males who do cause the level of unease. |
You can only punish someone so harshly for much of this though. How harsh can a punishment reasonably be for grazing another human being with your hand, or taking a picture, or looking at someone a bit too long? If you're talking about outright sexual assault, that's one thing, but women generally aren't being raped on subway cars, they're being touched or looked at. The western "lock everyone up" approach is expensive, inhumane, and socially destructive, Korean ought not emulate it.
General gender segregation is a historic norm, and with good reason. I'm not saying we need Saudi-style "You can't go anywhere without an escort!" laws, but the mass integration of male and female spaces has lead to a lot of problems and very little tangible good. Perhaps it's simply time to start dialing that back, but it can't simply be one-way. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Funny. I already feel that Korea is pretty segregated in terms of genders. Lots of times I'll see divides here that I probably wouldn't back home. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Funny. I already feel that Korea is pretty segregated in terms of genders. Lots of times I'll see divides here that I probably wouldn't back home. |
Right, but it's in the places it's not segregated (like densely-packed subways, or mixed-gender work places) that you see problems. You can either try to eliminate those problems western style (massive demonization of men coupled by a witch hunt atmosphere and ridiculously harsh punishments), or you can simply increase Korea's segregation just a bit more (as you said, it's already moderately segregated) and fix these problems. |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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To me, if it were one car (I guess maybe two), I'd be like who cares? It is no skin off my back.
But, I am willing to bet this is what is going to happen: a bunch of old ladies are going to take all the seats and you are going to have young women scatter back through the rest of the cars and it is not going to solve the problem.
I hope I am wrong. But, that would be my worry. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote: |
I'd feel safer using a woman-only car when traveling on the subway alone, especially in the evening. I'm not some fragile flower, but it's easier not having to be on your guard.
No, I don't think that all—or even most—men are sexual deviants, but it is a safety issue, and, considering the fact that this country does have a high rate of sex crime, why not try to protect women in more immediate ways? The mentality won't change overnight, even though it is surely changing, but if these cars were available tomorrow, I'd use them when alone. |
IMO, the better protection would be severe punishment for those caught. I truly believe that it is a small minority of men who act this way - yet they cause wide spread discomfort. If those men were harshly dealt with on their first offence, we'd have lower cases of recidivism. No more "men are different. They have nEEDS", or "he was drunk" excuses. Punish them, and take them out of society until they're able to behave.
Now, that might be more difficult than just assigning subway cars... but to me, it'd be more just.
| atwood wrote: |
| Quote: |
| So... are we generally ok with putting restrictions on a certain demographic because of a few butt heads within the group? |
Normally I would say no, but in Korea where laws are rarely enforced regularly, that's how it's done. And I think it's more than a "few butt heads." Common sense says that where there's smoke there's fire.
As for your statement, "the majority here, " by here do you mean this forum or do you mean Korea and Koreans? That women used to, and some still do, carry knitting pins to protect themselves on public transport tells me, at least, that it was fairly typical male behavior. Remember that being drunk was/is an all purpose excuse for any type of misbehavior. Remember typical Korean attitudes regarding women. Remember that per capita South Korea leads the world in porn consumption.
You sneered at my speed bump example on another thread. This is analogous to that. In both cases, those who abide by the law are lumped in with those who don't. Until you have a police force that enforces the laws, that's the probably the best solution. |
Little fires can make a lot of smoke. One guy doing this sort of thing can cause a lot of damage to a lot of women/people. I agree with you about the lax enforcement, but believe that's the area that needs to be addressed.
As for your things you're wanting me to "remember", I'm not sure porn consumption has a direct correlation to rapes/assaults. In fact, I seem to recall a post in Current Events showing a study out of northern europe citing the opposite.
Either way, I still challenge anyone who says this is "typical male behaviour" here. To me, typical means the majority, usual, most. And I don't see that being the case. |
Is it typical at a stop light for two, three or four cars to run the red, especially at turn signals? I'd say yes (unless there's a camera at that particular stop light). Does that mean the majority of drivers run red lights? Not necessarily.
So typical behavior doesn't equate to majority behavior.
As stated by another poster, harsh punishment probably isn't going to happen anytime soon in Korea. Until then male-free zones are the way to go and I applaud those instituting them rather than pushing the responsibility off on the police or other governmental organizations.
A good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow.
As for the study on porn you reference, I'd say the cultures of northern Europe and Korea differ enough so that such a study may well not apply here. |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote: |
I agree that it would be far more just to just have harsher punishment for the few males who do cause the level of unease. |
You can only punish someone so harshly for much of this though. How harsh can a punishment reasonably be for grazing another human being with your hand, or taking a picture, or looking at someone a bit too long? If you're talking about outright sexual assault, that's one thing, but women generally aren't being raped on subway cars, they're being touched or looked at. The western "lock everyone up" approach is expensive, inhumane, and socially destructive, Korean ought not emulate it.
General gender segregation is a historic norm, and with good reason. I'm not saying we need Saudi-style "You can't go anywhere without an escort!" laws, but the mass integration of male and female spaces has lead to a lot of problems and very little tangible good. Perhaps it's simply time to start dialing that back, but it can't simply be one-way. |
I'm fine with male-only cars as well. There's a lot of grey area between an accidental graze and a full on grope. That's why I like the idea of traveling in gender-segregated cars when I'm alone. Also, if a woman has been sexually assaulted in the past, being ogled can be a trigger, so yeah, it's all the more reason to have these safe havens. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:52 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
How harsh can a punishment reasonably be for grazing another human being with your hand, or taking a picture, or looking at someone a bit too long? |
The US has managed it though haven't they? You can be sued in some states for staring at a woman for too long. Staring is indeed harrasment.
If Korea had laws as tight as the US, most opf the country's men would be behind bars. Either for public drunkenness, sexual harrasmaent or urinating in public
| Quote: |
| You can only punish someone so harshly for much of this though. |
Ultimately the problem is cultural. Korea has to change their outdated attitudes that allow women to be viewed as property, that sexual molestation is a joke not worth bothering about.
| Unposter wrote: |
| a bunch of old ladies are going to take all the seats and you are going to have young women scatter back through the rest of the cars and |
Exactly. With Koreas increasingly aged population these cars will be bunged with agressive brolly-wielding grandmothers while all the young hotties will be forced- by the law of seniority- to relinquish their seats and be pushed into the testosterone-filled carriages. |
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