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beentheredonethat777
Joined: 27 Jul 2013
Location: AsiaHaven
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 Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:28 am Post subject: |
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. No Einstein, no Bell, no Newton, no Spinoza, no nothing.
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| No inventions whatsoever. Not a single nomination for a nobel prize. No great philosophers or mathematicians. |
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Whenever I say, "Koreans are so smart", my students ALWAYS say, "but teacher we've never won a Nobel, ever. "
I think this fact weighs heavy on their heart. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
I agree that Korean television is pretty bad, but something needs to be remembered: western television is what it is because it plays such a huge role in the western lifestyle. Adult men, adult women, university students, high school students, children, they all spend a huge amount of time watching television, and accordingly, the programming for each demographic tends to be quite developed.
By contrast, in Korea television plays a much weaker role in daily life:
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Americans and Japanese watch more television than residents of any other country in the world, a new study from Motorola has found.
According to Motorola's Mobility's Global 2010 Media Engagement Barometer study, American and Japanese viewers spend 21 hours per week watching television and video content. South Koreans watch the least TV--just 13 hours a week. The average amount of time spent watching TV each week around the world is 17 hours. Motorola said most television viewers watch scheduled programming, but 34 percent watch scheduled content in addition to online video and on-demand shows. |
Only adult women (largely stay at home mothers, perhaps?) seem to be anywhere near as interested in television as the average westerner, and the results seem to play into that: Korean dramas are a well-developed and (to at least some extent internationally) popular genre, while everything else (except I suppose educational programming*) gets left behind. Korean comedy programs suck because Koreans simply don't care as much about it; there's barely any real competition, because there simply isn't much interest. Highly developed television programming has more to do with the consumer base's propensity to watch television than it does with intellectual refinement.
*And that's worth remembering: that 13 hours a week Koreans spend watching "television" includes all those educational programs you can flip through. Subtract "study watching" from those figures and actual entertainment-focused television watching would be even lower! |
I wonder how they got those stats. I don't doubt that Koreans watch less TV in the home simply because they are home less. But pretty much every public space has a TV on. Almost all restaurants, hofs and even supermarkets will have the TV on with people watching (even hair salons and other such places). I don't think they counted that in their study. Not saying this to put down Koreans or anything, I just think the TV watching habits in Korea differ from that in other countries so it's harder to match up. Kind of like how we see the stats that say that Koreans spend more time at work and using our Western standards deduce that means Koreans work more. Not....exactly.
As for not valuing comedy, that doesn't really excuse the lack of it in Korean pop culture. The fact that they don't value it would indicate a less developed sense of humour, don't you think? I'm not sure, but it needs more investigating. |
And a lot of people on the subway and buses and even just walking down the street are watching TV.
Just sayin. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| No Einstein, no Bell, no Newton, no Spinoza, no nothing. |
No Holocaust, No Race-based Slavery, No Colonization, No Wars for Oil
Like I said, give fair credit both ways. Ask some member of a Native American tribe walking the Trail of Tears and having their family members die if they give a damn about Einstein, Bell, Newton, or Spinoza.
Hermit Kingdom vs. Manifest Destiny. I'd rather be neighbors to the Hermit Kingdom. At least they won't decide to invade my land and kill my family. |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:12 am Post subject: |
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Whatever. It's an average. There are plenty of people who scored higher as there are who scored much lower (you come across either of both on a regular basis).
Besides, anything near 100 on the IQ scale is still average. |
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Savant
Joined: 25 May 2007
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| No Einstein, no Bell, no Newton, no Spinoza, no nothing. |
No Holocaust, No Race-based Slavery, No Colonization, No Wars for Oil
Like I said, give fair credit both ways. Ask some member of a Native American tribe walking the Trail of Tears and having their family members die if they give a damn about Einstein, Bell, Newton, or Spinoza.
Hermit Kingdom vs. Manifest Destiny. I'd rather be neighbors to the Hermit Kingdom. At least they won't decide to invade my land and kill my family. |
Except class based slavery still existed in Joseon times long after the Trail of Tears.
What is your argument? Korea should be appreciated because even though they can't lay claim to popular modern inventors; they, as a nation haven't committed genocidal acts? I guess you don't count the Koreans who worked willingly for the Japanese Army as prison guards? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| Except class based slavery still existed in Joseon times long after the Trail of Tears. |
Except I was talking about race-based slavery. All cultures have used captives and servants as labors, not all did so based on race.
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| What is your argument? Korea should be appreciated because even though they can't lay claim to popular modern inventors; they, as a nation haven't committed genocidal acts? |
Not appreciated, but one should be balanced in their evaluation. No inventions? Maybe, but they also did not colonize other people. They chose an isolationist vs. a colonial path. Which is more morally sound?
Again, Spinoza and Newton don't mean a damn if you are being enslaved or forced off your tribal lands and your people subject to starvation and pillaging.
You have to take the bad with the good. There are millions of dead souls who take exception to the "contributions of humanity" and the cultures that brought them. I think they could do without the "contribution" they received from those cultures.
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| I guess you don't count the Koreans who worked willingly for the Japanese Army as prison guards? |
You mean collaborators working for an occupying army and a puppet government?
No, I don't count them anymore than I would count Dutch or Norwegian Waffen SS soldiers. Would you count those Dutch SS troops as being representative of Dutch conduct? |
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Savant
Joined: 25 May 2007
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| Except class based slavery still existed in Joseon times long after the Trail of Tears. |
Except I was talking about race-based slavery. All cultures have used captives and servants as labors, not all did so based on race. |
Ah! So race based slavery is worse than class based slavery? I'm sorry, I didn't know that there were levels of slavery? Aren't all forms of slavery just bad and inhumane? And we are calling some slaves as labors now? haha. To take a leaf out of your book, I'm sure if we asked the slaves in the Joseon period then they would think "Oh well, could be worse! At least I'm not a black slave working on a white-owned plantation."
| Steelrails wrote: |
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| I guess you don't count the Koreans who worked willingly for the Japanese Army as prison guards? |
You mean collaborators working for an occupying army and a puppet government?
No, I don't count them anymore than I would count Dutch or Norwegian Waffen SS soldiers. Would you count those Dutch SS troops as being representative of Dutch conduct? |
I'm sure the Dutch people would completely disown the conduct of those Dutch SS soldiers. Whereas, some of the Korean Governments response has been to label those Korean prison guards as victims, which is a disgrace to the allied servicemen who suffered from their brutality in the prison camps. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Ah! So race based slavery is worse than class based slavery? I'm sorry, I didn't know that there were levels of slavery? Aren't all forms of slavery just bad and inhumane? And we are calling some slaves as labors now? haha. To take a leaf out of your book, I'm sure if we asked the slaves in the Joseon period then they would think "Oh well, could be worse! At least I'm not a black slave working on a white-owned plantation."
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Yes, it was.
By all accounts Joseon slavery was much closer to serfdom on the scale of servitude.The race-based slavery of the American South was exceptionally brutal. If you can't grasp that, I don't know what to say.
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| I'm sure the Dutch people would completely disown the conduct of those Dutch SS soldiers. Whereas, some of the Korean Governments response has been to label those Korean prison guards as victims, which is a disgrace to the allied servicemen who suffered from their brutality in the prison camps. |
Some?
But the Korean government strongly condemns the Japanese occupation and does not condone any of its wartime conduct.
Well, perhaps not the Dutch far-right, but certainly Le Pen in France and Hader in Austria would excuse and even embrace their soldier's collaboration with the Nazis. And Le Pen drew major votes in France and Hader once led the Austrian government! I'm sure there are plenty of those in Europe's Far-Right or even moderates who might try to excuse the conduct of collaborators by saying they were intimidated by the Nazis.
Why is it there is always an exception for the West with you, but Korea deserves no sympathy? Aren't you doing the exact same thing as those awful Korean government excusers?
Obviously an objective standard isn't what you're basing your analysis on. Your analysis is that Koreans are wrong because they are Korean. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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Objectively, I don't think one can place much emphasis on arguments such as Korea didn't colonize other nations unless one has some sort of evidence that they had the ability to colonize and made a conscious decision not to.
During most of the age of imperialism, Joseon was a tributary of China and once the west splintered that arrangement was struggling to become and exist as an independent state. It lacked the ability to colonize or to wage war on another nation.
But as Japan modeled its foreign relations during this period on the West, many in Joseon wished to follow Japan as a model. Who knows if that would or would not have included colonization if the means were available.
SR's arguments for conditions for slaves during Joseon ironically echo the southern plantation owners he is castigating. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Objectively, I don't think one can place much emphasis on arguments such as Korea didn't colonize other nations unless one has some sort of evidence that they had the ability to colonize and made a conscious decision not to. |
Well the nickname "The Hermit Kingdom" didn't come about for nothing.
Whether or not they had the means, they appeared to lack any desire to pursue that policy. It's not like they were without examples, given China and Mongolia's proximity.
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| SR's arguments for conditions for slaves during Joseon ironically echo the southern plantation owners he is castigating. |
Joseon was no picnic, but it was nothing like the South. There wasn't a racial theory built into the whole thing and things like literacy laws and selective breeding. No stealing and transporting people across continents in barbaric conditions.
The point is- You want credit for Cicero, you have to take the blame for Mussolini. You can't say "Hey look what our country gave the world" and shirk away when its other "gifts" are indicated. Nor can you condemn a country for not contributing anything to the world but attempt to equate its own internal messes with "gifts" to the world like colonialism and the African slave trade.
England- Gave much, inflicted much. Korea- Gave little, inflicted little.
Depending on where you live and who you were, one or the other was the better nation. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Race-based slavery is not worse than class-based slavery. Let's not use myths created specifically to promote white guilt as foundational principles of our argumentation. |
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cabeza
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Well the nickname "The Hermit Kingdom" didn't come about for nothing.
Whether or not they had the means, they appeared to lack any desire to pursue that policy. It's not like they were without examples, given China and Mongolia's proximity.
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Before I say this I want to say I agree it is pretty effin ridiculous for me or anyone else to bask in the glory of Issac Newton just becuase I happen to be born in an English speaking or "western" country. But....
The Hermit Kingdom period was initially a reaction to Qing Chinese and Japanese incursions. The Joseon court regarded the Manchus as wild barbarians, despite getting their ass handed to them by the Manchus twice.
The policy was to isolate Korea so as preserve what they had and not get caught up in external problems. This extended itself as time went on and I know I'm giving a pretty basic summary.
Don't pretend that it was noble endevour by peaceful Koreans, who had the power to conquer all around them but chose not to. They were in no position to invade anyone, let alone China. Joseon was scared of being wiped off the map so they did what they did.
Korea, as we know it today, has never been in any position to do what the Americans have done. But I think its pretty safe to say they would if they could have. Just as ANY country would.
I think the argument could be made about China. China DID have the power/ability to go on much grander, continent spanning, empire building. But they never really did. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
Objectively, I don't think one can place much emphasis on arguments such as Korea didn't colonize other nations unless one has some sort of evidence that they had the ability to colonize and made a conscious decision not to.
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Exactly. I said something similar earlier. Violence and cruelty is a human trait, not a specifically race related one. I find it interesting that SR always tries to tell everyone that Koreans are no different than everyone else, yet easily jumps to that line of thought when it compliments Koreans. There are many examples of Koreans being cruel to their fellow man throughout history, as there is for every single race and society in human history. In fact, some might say it's more cruel to abuse your own people than to invade and abuse others. I don't personally agree with that, and I'm sure SR will find a way to show that Koreans abusing their own is somehow more moral than one race abusing another. Oh wait, he already has. Weird that no matter what the circumstances, Koreans have always seemed to do the right thing...according to SR. |
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radcon
Joined: 23 May 2011
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| No Einstein, no Bell, no Newton, no Spinoza, no nothing. |
No Holocaust, No Race-based Slavery, No Colonization, No Wars for Oil
Like I said, give fair credit both ways. Ask some member of a Native American tribe walking the Trail of Tears and having their family members die if they give a damn about Einstein, Bell, Newton, or Spinoza.
Hermit Kingdom vs. Manifest Destiny. I'd rather be neighbors to the Hermit Kingdom. At least they won't decide to invade my land and kill my family. |
Isn't this thread about intelligence? The issues you bring up are moral in nature. One can even argue that colonization and running an empire would take a high level of intelligence by those doing the colonizing. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| Objectively, I don't think one can place much emphasis on arguments such as Korea didn't colonize other nations unless one has some sort of evidence that they had the ability to colonize and made a conscious decision not to. |
Well the nickname "The Hermit Kingdom" didn't come about for nothing.
Whether or not they had the means, they appeared to lack any desire to pursue that policy. It's not like they were without examples, given China and Mongolia's proximity.
| Quote: |
| SR's arguments for conditions for slaves during Joseon ironically echo the southern plantation owners he is castigating. |
Joseon was no picnic, but it was nothing like the South. There wasn't a racial theory built into the whole thing and things like literacy laws and selective breeding. No stealing and transporting people across continents in barbaric conditions.
The point is- You want credit for Cicero, you have to take the blame for Mussolini. You can't say "Hey look what our country gave the world" and shirk away when its other "gifts" are indicated. Nor can you condemn a country for not contributing anything to the world but attempt to equate its own internal messes with "gifts" to the world like colonialism and the African slave trade.
England- Gave much, inflicted much. Korea- Gave little, inflicted little.
Depending on where you live and who you were, one or the other was the better nation. |
None of that is much of an argument. "They appear" is meaningless as it is obviously lacks any real foundation.
I've read that the Hermit Kingdom came about from fear of attack by other nations, which is also the reason they settled more inland than on the coasts.
One could easily turn your slavery comments around--While other nations saw and exploited an already existing system of slavery in Africa (and then rationalized it with theories of racial superiority) Koreans took their own as slaves. And do you know for a fact there was no selective breeding--women were slaves--and can you show their living conditions were not barbaric, ever? I doubt it.
As for Cicero and Mussolini, I don't see the connection. If you're going in that direction, I think the artists patronized by the popes and Borgias etc. would be a better way to go. But as for England, Shakespeare and Sir Paul stand apart from any political or social ill you wish to lay at England's feet. |
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