|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
No_hite_pls
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right
|
 Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:52 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
This is reality. Believing that people will treat all people the same is a fantasy. If not for tips, then hot people will get treated special (they already do), or physically intimidating people, or based on race, or whatever. Tipping enables someone who lacks those qualities to overcome them.
It also adds a direct coercive element to ensure proper service. Complaint to the manager? The guy making 10 bucks an hour for some franchise? Yeah, like he'll truly care. The owner who has been besieged by 5 scammers for every legit complaint? Corporate? Sure you'll get some vouchers or something, but that doesn't really solve the problem. Having it understood that serving someone poorly will result in a direct loss of income is a powerful incentive. Money talks.
And tipping is not class warfare, as even people who work minimum wage jobs still order pizza, go to the bar, eat out, and get haircuts. They tip too. |
Love it! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| The waiters performance -- and the value the customer places on that performance -- would vary on a waiter by waiter basis |
Is this not how other people approach the waiter-customer interaction?
| Quote: |
| How does the waiter's performance become more valuable in response to the quality of food one orders? |
I believe the idea is that it varies based on the quantity ordered, not quality. The more he has to juggle, both mentally in recording and reporting the order and physically in performing a quality-assurance check before bringing it to the table, the more "service" he has provided. And perhaps the restaurant (cheap) to restaurant (expensive) variance depends on quality of the atmosphere and the waiter's ability to act accordingly.
| Quote: |
| If I tipped waiters in direct correlation to their performance as relates to my desires, I'd either be tipping zero or be writing most waiters a bill, because their bumbling false pleasantries and intrusive behavior diminishes my enjoyment of my meal. |
You are receiving a service supposedly tailored to your desires. As such, if you are not pleased by an aspect of that service, it is incumbent upon you to communicate that dissatisfaction before it reaches a boiling point. If the waiter changes tact and provides you a pleasant dining experience, that (customarily) is rewarded with an appropriate tip. If not, you should certainly leave either nothing, or nothing with a complaint. That's what I do anyway. Granted, since returning from Korea, there's a growing number of restaurants I refuse to return to because I'm worried what bodily fluids might make it into my next meal. Does that make the system coercive? Annoying? Certainly. But I fail to see how that makes it akin to charity. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| geldedgoat wrote: |
You are receiving a service supposedly tailored to your desires. As such, if you are not pleased by an aspect of that service, it is incumbent upon you to communicate that dissatisfaction before it reaches a boiling point. |
Needing to communicate my dissatisfaction breeds dissatisfaction though, which is part of my problem with the whole affair. Once I need to tell you, "Hey fellow, just get out of the way, I'll tell the chef what I want myself, bring it to my own table once it's finished, and I'll keep my own water full," my experience has already suffered (and the waiter's smouldering grudge at being told to go away, even politely, will only add awkwardness!). It's only an attitude of charity which allows me to reconcile my desire to eat (and pay for) quality food cooked at a restaurant and the undesirable presence of the waiter. I'm willing to make that charitable effort out of affection for my fellow man, but I'm not willing to pretend it is what it isn't. I would be happier if there were no waiters at restaurants -- or at the very least if you needed to specially request one -- so how can my willingness to not only accept the waiter's presence for the waiter's sake but even pay for it be anything but charity? A waiter at a restaurant is, in my eyes, functionally identical to a homeless man running out at a traffic stop and washing my windshield in hopes of getting some spare change; in neither case do I want the service, and in both cases I'd be giving money only out of a spirit of concern for the person in question. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 7:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| Needing to communicate my dissatisfaction breeds dissatisfaction though, which is part of my problem with the whole affair. |
I agree. I am in now way defending the tipping custom, only addressing the manner in which it should be criticized.
I've occasionally found myself absent-mindedly looking for a table buzzer or, much to my travel-inexperienced friends' distaste, waving my hand and hollering for a waiter when needed.
| Quote: |
| I'm willing to make that charitable effort out of affection for my fellow man, but I'm not willing to pretend it is what it isn't. |
Again, as described, this all sounds much more like coercion based on fear of some kind of retaliation rather than charity, but if you say your motivations are charitable, then I can't really argue. I'd be very surprised if that's how any kind of majority feels, though I've already admitted some of my behavior to be extreme so... *shrug*
I have to disagree with your introduction of the homeless person, though: not only are the circumstances of the intrusion significantly different, but the waiter actually has a job that guarantees charity, er, minimum wage, with or without your assistance. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Captain Corea wrote: |
The tipping culture in Canada is almost exactly like the US. |
 I wouldn't have known that, but then again America, Canada what the hell's the difference?
Last edited by young_clinton on Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Unposter wrote: |
| Tipping like any other artifact of culture is just fine as long as people understand the rules. And, that more than anything defines it as not corruption, which by definition has to be an illegal act. |
You don't count serving under-age juveniles as an illegal act?
Read my post at the bottom of page one again.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Standing in line outside is not a good time. Waiting 20 minutes for your order to come is not a good time. |
But its fair.
First come first served. If someone ordered ahead of you, I don't care if you throw fifty dollars in my face, you'll get served when its your turn.
The difference between us is that I have standards, and I worked at an establishment that has standards.
That is to say, one of the most prestigious bars in the city of london, in one of the most exclusive areas, serving the rich and famous. I served celebrities on almost a dialy basis. Multi millionaires.Tycoons. Movie stars. I've even served Madonna for pitys sakes. And when people like that hang out, they want a secure, ordered environment.
Its my job to create that environment. I don't keep selling drinks to someone agressive or who's already passed out. Why? Because its asking for trouble. I don't let people cut in line. Its also asking for trouble. I'm the one who has throw these people out onto the street. I'm the one who has to clear up their sick on the carpet. I'm the one who has to occasionally call the police. Its my bar that gets closed down if its found to serve underage people.
What they expect is something quite different to the working class dive that you describe, where a few dollars induces you to break the law. What you are promoting is a slippery slope whereby money buys anything. Do you also sell cigarettes to minors? supply needles under the counter?
| Unposter wrote: |
| I like the idea of tipping. It makes me more of my own boss. I do a good job and people pay me a little extra. Personally, I think it creates the opportunity to earn a higher salary than the one I would earn if it were up to my employer to pay me |
Being your own boss is not having to suck up to jerks in order to make a living wage.
If you want an opportunity to earn a higher wage, work for a place that pays a normal wage. ie somewhere not in America. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
But its fair.
First come first served. If someone ordered ahead of you, I don't care if you throw fifty dollars in my face, you'll get served when its your turn.
|
I'm not going out with my friends to live out concepts of fairness. I'd take my friends out to a soup kitchen if I wanted to do that. I'm going out to have a good time. The other people in line are going out to have a good time, not to be fair. I'm taking care of my friends.
| Quote: |
That is to say, one of the most prestigious bars in the city of london, in one of the most exclusive areas, serving the rich and famous. I served celebrities on almost a dialy basis. Multi millionaires.Tycoons. Movie stars. I've even served Madonna for pitys sakes. And when people like that hang out, they want a secure, ordered environment.
|
So you are using the example of the most exclusive bar in London to defend your concept of tipping? What's next, using a Michelin 3 star to explain how to run a pizza parlor or lemonade stand?
Good for you working there. I worked at a place that served to the poor, working class, middle class, upper-middle, and a few wealthy people. I went out to places that had the same type of clientele.
But of course, I assume that those "celebrities" that you served at your bar were told to wait 30-70 minutes in line like everyone else. I'm sure they never got any perks or had their entourage waived through without people checking their ID. 
| Quote: |
| Its my job to create that environment. I don't keep selling drinks to someone agressive or who's already passed out. |
You are a waiter. Get over yourself.
| Quote: |
I'm the one who has throw these people out onto the street. I'm the one who has to clear up their sick on the carpet. I'm the one who has to occasionally call the police. Its my bar that gets closed down if its found to serve underage people.
|
So at this joint frequented by celebrities, people are puking on the carpet and you are calling the cops on them?
| Quote: |
What they expect is something quite different to the working class dive that you describe, where a few dollars induces you to break the law. What you are promoting is a slippery slope whereby money buys anything. Do you also sell cigarettes to minors? supply needles under the counter?
|
Yes, I got friends in low places. I do have a scant few in high places. But if you actually knew anything you'd know that the Wooden Knicle, Olde Town, Babs', The Arena, Bel-Mark Lanes, (or their equivalents) are not free-for all orgies of destruction and violence. It's called stiff drinks, free random shots, chicken wings after the fryers shuts down at 1:30, waved through the line, and drink till 3. Not something out of the Wild West. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
For what it is worth:
When I was under-aged, I was always appreciative to the people who showed kindness to me.
I disagree that being a successful server means sucking up to jerks in order to make a living wage.
I would rather tipping not extend to other transactions but it already is and I try to be nice to people and I think that has been a positive for me. For example, I am happy to offer the person who checks my gas for leaks a drink. That person is happy and I am happy and I think it makes for good service all around. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
