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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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 Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| radcon wrote: |
| I don't understand that Danish model. A salary of 80,000 is taxed at 56%. That about 35,000 take home. Yet these youngsters on the dole lead these nice financially secure lives. Their take home must be in the ballpark of 35,000 because Denmark isn't cheap. Why would anyone bother to work? No resentment? |
I'm guessing it must be marginal rates, meaning that they wouldn't pay that rate on all their income, but only on income above 80,000. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Anyways, after reading all of this about other countries welfare policies and such I am a bit jealous, here we have a shutdown over something like the ACA, there even the conservative parties wouldn't dream of ending these programs. |
I'm unnerved by your apparently friendly comparison between the two. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Anyways, after reading all of this about other countries welfare policies and such I am a bit jealous, here we have a shutdown over something like the ACA, there even the conservative parties wouldn't dream of ending these programs. |
I'm unnerved by your apparently friendly comparison between the two. |
Not commenting on ACA merits, but on the reasons why it is opposed, if that makes sense. More a comment on American political attitudes than on specific policy. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
I wasn't thinking of Sweden, but of Denmark, but couldn't remember what country I was thinking of this morning when I wrote my post. They have a similar system to the ones the Swiss are proposing, and they are having some issues maintaining it, at least based on the limited information I've read about it. They are doing relatively well for Europe though. There birth rate is at 1.7 which is a bit higher than I'd expected, but still low. |
1.7 is not bad. Eliminate feministic anti-maternity culture and they can probably achieve replenishment rates. I feel like you are making my case for me. Remember, I did not say the basic income was a one-stop solution, I said it was only part of the solution.
| Leon wrote: |
| "But Denmark’s long-term outlook is troubling. The population is aging, and in many regions of the country people without jobs now outnumber those with them. |
Unemployment, in-and-of itself, is not necessarily problematic though Leon. The reason unemployment is usually so damning is that it reduces demand, which can lead to further layoffs, and so on in a vicious cycle. Because a basic income creates a minimum level of demand, such cycles are less of a problem; production, not employment in itself, becomes the concern. That's how it should be. So long as we can keep productivity at an adequate level, in principle it is all right if not everyone works. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| "Oh, the rich will just stop producing then." |
The rich throw money around hoping one of their investments makes them tons of money. They don't produce, but they do facilitate the ability to produce, by giving opportunities to that young small business owner with that big idea. And that's the role they are supposed to fill anyways. Hopefully, one day I will have amasses enough capital to do this too. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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Allowing people to extract millions from the economy in hopes that they will give opportunities to small business owners is silly in modern times. Fundraising is easier than ever in the Internet era; a few thousand small investors can fund a good idea just as easily as one hedge-find tick on the body public, and they'll cause fewer societal problems in the bargain.
Ideas of the format, "We need the ultra-wealthy because <insert narrative>," are generally propaganda. Do not fall for it. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
I wasn't thinking of Sweden, but of Denmark, but couldn't remember what country I was thinking of this morning when I wrote my post. They have a similar system to the ones the Swiss are proposing, and they are having some issues maintaining it, at least based on the limited information I've read about it. They are doing relatively well for Europe though. There birth rate is at 1.7 which is a bit higher than I'd expected, but still low. |
1.7 is not bad. Eliminate feministic anti-maternity culture and they can probably achieve replenishment rates. I feel like you are making my case for me. Remember, I did not say the basic income was a one-stop solution, I said it was only part of the solution.
| Leon wrote: |
| "But Denmark’s long-term outlook is troubling. The population is aging, and in many regions of the country people without jobs now outnumber those with them. |
Unemployment, in-and-of itself, is not necessarily problematic though Leon. The reason unemployment is usually so damning is that it reduces demand, which can lead to further layoffs, and so on in a vicious cycle. Because a basic income creates a minimum level of demand, such cycles are less of a problem; production, not employment in itself, becomes the concern. That's how it should be. So long as we can keep productivity at an adequate level, in principle it is all right if not everyone works. |
This issue of demographics is harder than you make it out to be, otherwise I would leave it alone. You keep bringing up feminism, is Japan feminist? Next you will say that it's expensive to raise children, except that even in poor countries this trend exists on a micro level. This is a well researched topic, look it up and you will find more information. The Danes find 1.7 too low, at least according to the newspaper articles I saw, and also it turns out Danish men have weak sperm, which was odd.
I don't find the unemployment as damaging as the aging population. Enough about demographics from me. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
This issue of demographics is harder than you make it out to be, otherwise I would leave it alone. You keep bringing up feminism, is Japan feminist? |
From an economic perspective, yes; women are a major part of the mainstream work force. Moreover, Japan does not have a basic income, so how can you hold them against my case. I put forward a small suite of policies intended to counteract low fertility, and none of your counter examples have enacted it in its totality.
You want this to be complicated. Complexity is something you hide behind, because the real world is not friendly to your ideals.
| Leon wrote: |
| Next you will say that it's expensive to raise children, except that even in poor countries this trend exists on a micro level. This is a well researched topic, look it up and you will find more information. |
No, I will not. Present your data, and present it convincingly, because I will vigorously attack it if it is not absolutely solid. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
This issue of demographics is harder than you make it out to be, otherwise I would leave it alone. You keep bringing up feminism, is Japan feminist? |
From an economic perspective, yes; women are a major part of the mainstream work force. Moreover, Japan does not have a basic income, so how can you hold them against my case. I put forward a small suite of policies intended to counteract low fertility, and none of your counter examples have enacted it in its totality.
You want this to be complicated. Complexity is something you hide behind, because the real world is not friendly to your ideals.
| Leon wrote: |
| Next you will say that it's expensive to raise children, except that even in poor countries this trend exists on a micro level. This is a well researched topic, look it up and you will find more information. |
No, I will not. Present your data, and present it convincingly, because I will vigorously attack it if it is not absolutely solid. |
I feel like you continually misunderstand this about me, saying things are complicated isn't a defense of my ideas, it is a keystone to my idiots. The world is relatively kind to my ideas, I don't think that an increasing birth rate is a good in and of itself, and that given the exponential growth of the population in the past century the idea that the link between population growth and prosperity is a two way street seems to be intuitive. I don't remember where I read this, but it might have been in the economist piece I linked, but if you want to know how to increase the pop. GF already knows, get rid of birth control, some 1/3 I think of the babies born in the third world are unwanted. If you are willing to argue that it should be illegal to increase the pop. that | | |
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