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Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009 Location: Earth, Solar System
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Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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No, it is a subset of the West. This is what Gilbert Ryle called a categorical mistake. And by most metrics, the USA is a rather poor example of the West (with the exception of military prowess and top tier wealth).
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I disagree.
In terms of economics, military might, technological innovation, and entertainment culture, the United States is at the forefront of Western Culture.
It's like claiming that McDonald's is not fast food.
However, the point is that when posters on here want to use an example of Western accomplishment, they frequently point to American accomplishments. However, when America is used as an example of negative Western behavior or results, invariably people try to claim that it is not "the West".
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It is clumsy to say Japan is Asia (ask any Korean), it is also clumsy to say the USA is the West. |
But the statement was that Korea was uncivilized compared to the West. This means that as a whole, every Western nation is civilized. To find an example of uncivilized behavior in one is to invalidate the statement.
Anyways, what is the West? Is it England with its youth gangs? Is it Austria/Netherlands/France/Italy with major xenophobic far-right parties playing major roles in government?
Is Western Culture Christianity (A non-Western Religion)? Is it Greece, which presently totters on ruin? Is it all the inventions and products of European and American Jews or African-Americans, people who during much of the last 500 years have been treated abysmally by the West and were rejected as being part of their culture? Are we to have a broad inclusion of the West or a narrow one?
Fact remains if some of these posters bemoaning Korean "civilization" were to be suddenly dropped off in certain neighborhoods in Europe or even certain cities in the U.S., they would run screaming back to Korea and never again complain about spitting.
Spitting may be bad, but it is nothing to a mugging. Sorry, but the complete lack of mugging stories in Korea compared to back home MUST be culture if spitting is.
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It is clumsy and a false equivalency to compare spitting to gun violence. One is an action done of habit that that goes unpunished, the other is an emotionally driven action that puts you in jail. Equivalent? Not so much. There is a place for comparisons, but not ill conceived and clumsy ones. |
100% wrong. One of the basic criteria for "civilization" is public safety. If the threat of violence in basic commerce is so great that one has to take care against armed action in places such as gas stations and convenience stores, then that indicates a lack of development.
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and your ingratitude to the West that created a middle class that gave you so much opportunity which you then denigrate.
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You talk about bad arguments, here is one- Do not put words in my mouth. Who says I'm ungrateful? Where did I denigrate it?
I took exception to those who would call Korea "uncivilized" because of spitting in comparison to their own countries, when there is likely some example of uncivilized behavior as well.
Sorry, either both countries are civilized or neither are. I happen to think both are in a relative sense. I think neither are in an absolute sense.
In an absolute sense, if one were to observe both cultures from afar and with a futuristic and alien perspective, they would find little to distinguish both peoples and regard them all as primitives. Their economic systems are the same. Their organizing principles are the same- all employ hierarchical structures. All feature people laboring for currency which they use to support a family unit. They engage in similar leisure activities and so on.
Really, for many people this isn't about the criteria of civilization. For some it is a personal pet peeve of a habit such as smoking or drunks or stoners or the obese. For others this is merely a way to make themselves superior and to help them mentally cope with being a minority in a foreign land.
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Your score so far: strawman, ad hominem tu quoque, categorical mistake, and false equivalency...To be taken seriously, tidy up your logic |
Excuse me, but I'm the sole one pointing out the obvious flaw in the argument- Many here are attempting to classify Korea as "uncivilized" without taking the first step- Establishing the criteria for civilization. Instead what we have seen are claims that Korea is uncivilized because of spitting, and then working backwards to establish what constitutes civilization. |
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metalhead
Joined: 18 May 2010 Location: Toilet
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:29 am Post subject: |
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Who the hell cares about the problems of the 'West' when the topic is people spitting in Korea? I doubt Steelrails has ever been to Europe in the first place, so take what he says (as usual) with a grain of salt as 90% of it is pure crap.
It's really odd that a guy who loves Korea so much can't even get a girlfriend in the damn place. Astounding actually.
Spitting in public is disgusting, and shows a lack of consideration for other people, which is what manners is all about. It has nothing to do with bullet-proof windows in America at all, otherwise we could talk about the problem of Korean men molesting children and getting away with it, then talk about racism in New Zealand, then move on to Korean women forced into prostitution - it's another pathetic attempt by Steelrails to derail a thread and write endless paragraphs of tripe as usual. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:36 am Post subject: |
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One day when I used to smoke I was standing outside work next to one of those big stand alone ashtrays and an office worker from the same building. I was also drinking a plastic cup of coffee which I rested on the ashtray from time to time. I guess you know what's coming next. Yes the salaryman, not being aware enough of what was going on around him, hawked up a big gob of flem and spat it straight into my coffee. |
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Old fat expat

Joined: 19 Sep 2005 Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:16 am Post subject: |
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Steelrails:
You appear to think the USA is the cultural center of Western civilization and thought. I feel a little sorry for you but the good news is there is another block buster 3D CGV extravaganza coming your way again soon. Git yoself a big gulp and soak in the culture.
From there, you claim that Korea is just as civilized as the West since the USA has a crime problem. eeek.
You do know you chomped on IPayInCash's troll rather enthusiastically. He is the one that pulled your chain about Korea being uncivilized. But you should know that is what he does. Go figure.
I really liked this part in your response:
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In an absolute sense, if one were to observe both cultures from afar and with a futuristic and alien perspective, they would find little to distinguish both peoples and regard them all as primitives. Their economic systems are the same. Their organizing principles are the same- all employ hierarchical structures. All feature people laboring for currency which they use to support a family unit. They engage in similar leisure activities and so on. |
I haven't met any futuristic aliens (as opposed to the backward aliens I have not met either, but I sure I would not like them as they would probably spit-being backward and all) so I will take your word on what they would think. They might think, 'yumm,' or 'How much can I steal', or 'Is that bullet proofed?', but I am sure you're right and they will consider us all to be the same (much like you do) and wanting the same thing and being organized the same way--and thereby fail to understand the richness of human culture. And their differences.
Now I'm off to engage in a leisure activity which I am sure you do not.  |
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crescent

Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Location: yes.
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:27 am Post subject: |
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I've seen males and females here spit on the floor of the bus, the subway, and in the halls and elevators of public buildings, and apartment buildings. Even on a bench. I've been to a few local college pubs where it seemed perfectly acceptable to spit on the floor because more than one patron was doing it as if it were necessary to their existence.
I've also experienced numerous near misses. If I walked a bit faster, I'd have been hit on many occasions. Never did I receive any hint that the offender felt an inkling of remorse or embarrassment for their actions.
Recently, I saw a high-school aged woman on the bus applying her makeup. She was all dressed up, bows on her shoes and all. She primped her hair, took a few selfies, and then got up to leave, landing a nice big loogie on the sidewalk in front of her.
There simply is no reason or excuse for this type of behaviour. It falls in with the vomiting and urination in public, and all the littering and bumping and the pushing and the line jumping.
I've seen enough mothers here pull down the pants of their kids to have them pee in a cup in the middle of a food court, sometimes right up on the table, with the restroom 50 meters away.
The whole bodily fluid thing is a sign of a lack of civic awareness and responsibility. It's a leftover reflex of an agrarian society that was yanked by the scruff of its neck into the modern world. |
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Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009 Location: Earth, Solar System
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Spitting in public is disgusting, and shows a lack of consideration for other people, which is what manners is all about. It has nothing to do with bullet-proof windows in America at all, |
It does when you directly compare countries and call one civilized and one uncivilized.
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You appear to think the USA is the cultural center of Western civilization and thought. I feel a little sorry for you but the good news is there is another block buster 3D CGV extravaganza coming your way again soon. Git yoself a big gulp and soak in the culture.
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It is not the center, but it is the biggest player in the room. Claiming otherwise is being disingenuous.
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From there, you claim that Korea is just as civilized as the West since the USA has a crime problem. eeek. |
I'm saying that choosing single criteria, such as spitting, is a bit ridiculous. Essentially it is an attempt by some people who are poorly assimilating into another country to go "Look, look I found this one bad habit of the locals, now I can call them uncivilized and put myself on a pedestal above them." It's not surprising, that has been the MO of people going into foreign lands for centuries.
Spitting is A criteria of good manners and good manners are part of being civilized. However, violence and gun crime are greater indicators of civilization. Or say, British or Australian youth gangs and violence.
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You do know you chomped on IPayInCash's troll rather enthusiastically. He is the one that pulled your chain about Korea being uncivilized. But you should know that is what he does. Go figure. |
True.
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but I am sure you're right and they will consider us all to be the same (much like you do) and wanting the same thing and being organized the same way--and thereby fail to understand the richness of human culture. And their differences. |
I'm sorry your perspective on civilizations is so myopic that you can't see the grand scale of human development and how ultimately similar, not different, we are.
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It's really odd that a guy who loves Korea so much can't even get a girlfriend in the damn place. Astounding actually. |
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Now I'm off to engage in a leisure activity which I am sure you do not. Very Happy |
Fail.
Though I admit that I attract either overly naive and boring girls or daddy-issue alcoholics. The church girls see me as "wild" but stable. And the alchys see me as stable but a partier.
Anyways, stop trying to validate your argument by making shit up about me. |
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Old fat expat

Joined: 19 Sep 2005 Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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Steelrails:
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It's really odd that a guy who loves Korea so much can't even get a girlfriend in the damn place. Astounding actually. |
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Now I'm off to engage in a leisure activity which I am sure you do not. Very Happy |
Fail.
Though I admit that I attract either overly naive and boring girls or daddy-issue alcoholics. The church girls see me as "wild" but stable. And the alchys see me as stable but a partier.
Anyways, stop trying to validate your argument by making shit up about me. |
Dude, I don't give a toss about your girlfriend dramas. But in your reply is a telling truth. You took 2 unrelated quotes from 2 different posters that are talking about 2 different things, rolled them into one narrative and then called it a fail. You fabricate meaning that is just not there.
And I don't have to make shit up, there is more than enough raw shit to wade through in your random streams of consciousness. |
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beentheredonethat777
Joined: 27 Jul 2013 Location: AsiaHaven
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: Why do they spit so damned much? |
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A few years ago, in my adult class, one of my lessons focused on annoying habits. I mentioned "spitting in public" and the men in my class were taken aback. It was hard for them to imagine anyone getting offended at spit. "What are we supposed to do with it?" they asked with a puzzled look on their innocent looking faces.
One went on to ask, "Why do westerners say excuse me when they burp?"
"Any body function is normal and a part of life and living." he added. (passing gas, spitting, coughing, burping, sneezing, belching, vomiting ,etc.)
I think its a cultural nuance. I've learned to look the other way.
FYI: Spitting in some cultures is used as a protection against evil.
In others, it is an act of admiration towards an individual. But there it is neither/nor. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Why do they spit so damned much? |
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Smithington wrote: |
But my question is: why do they do it? |
Smoking paralyzes and kills the cilia in the respiratory tract responsible for moving mucus, and the resultant build-up is painfully uncomfortable. |
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Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009 Location: Earth, Solar System
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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Old fat expat wrote: |
Dude, I don't give a toss about your girlfriend dramas. But in your reply is a telling truth. You took 2 unrelated quotes from 2 different posters that are talking about 2 different things, rolled them into one narrative and then called it a fail. You fabricate meaning that is just not there.
And I don't have to make shit up, there is more than enough raw shit to wade through in your random streams of consciousness. |
It was a two for one. Same point, different poster.
And apparently you do have to make stuff up, because that is what you did. Keep it civil. |
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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It's really odd that a guy who loves Korea so much can't even get a girlfriend in the damn place. Astounding actually. |
Come on, guys. Let's not let things get personal. You might not agree with SR's arguments, but away from here he's probably a stand up guy. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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Come on, guys. Let's not let things get personal. You might not agree with SR's arguments, but away from here he's probably a stand up guy. |
Agreed. It's only one step away from 'he's annoyed about something because he can't get laid.' The laziest counter in existence.
I do wish though that SR would stop drawing comparisons between crime - an illegal act comitted by a small minority, a society condemns. And culture -legal, accepted and exhibited by the majority. You could make a strong argument that one country is more civilised than another because it has a lower crime rate, or another is more civilised for having better manners, but don't confuse the two. |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007 Location: On your computer screen.
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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It would also be good if Steelrails could realize that it's OK to criticize one aspect of one country without comparing it to other countries and it doesn't have to mean a general condemnation of said country.
I agree that many western countries are more dangerous than here but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be bothered when someone spits inches away from my feet. Also I'm pretty sure in some cases it's deliberate passive-aggressive racism when it's aimed that close. While it might be 'OK' in Korea, it's something they still need to be educated about if they intend to travel as they'll likely get their asses beat if they spit at people like that in many other countries. |
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mayorhaggar
Joined: 01 Jan 2013
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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I actually don't mind the spitting as much as I get annoyed by the extravagant over-the-top drama queen HHHHKKKKCHHHHHOOOEUUUURRKKK noise that every Korean feels is absolutely essential to spitting. |
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Old fat expat

Joined: 19 Sep 2005 Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
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Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:41 am Post subject: |
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Steelrails said:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good idea. But just for the sake of clarity, please tell me which thing not to do:
1. Don't give you a thorough spanking for your poor logic?
2. Don't mock the idiocy of your posts (intelligent aliens looking down on us-as if there could be any other kind-and concurring we are all the same)?
3. Don't point out where you mis-quote and assign/combine multiple quotes from multiple posters to one person because it suits your narrative?
4. Don't repeat back the phrase you used on me - that would be the making shit up phrase?
Now, telling me I am 100% wrong does not lend itself to civil discourse. Telling me I am myopic and unable to grasp larger concepts, as if you in your supreme awesomeness of understanding know how the world works, will led me to push back. Telling me I make shit up is not civil discourse either.
Really Steelrails, your fight is with IPayInCash and Metalhead, they are the ones that made it personal at you.
I will now bow out of this uncivil discourse. Have at it. |
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