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Janny
Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Location: all over the place
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 Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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Mr. BlackCat, you must have some extra time to kill and some whiskey to swill.
You should know by now that having a logical debate with SR is a frustrating, aggravating experience. I think it's especially troubling because SR often DOES make some points that could be true in a sense, but he does not often take the nuance or context of the entire issue into effect. So it's a maddening case of you trying to make him understand and him coming back at you with small tidbits of info, picking apart paragraphs line by line and completely missing the big picture.
Other times, his big picture is just flat-out WRONG.
Anyway, kudos for your persistence. I found this thread entertaining. ...because I like pain lol.
Also, Patrick's "mr. nice guy" responses drive me up the wall too. He pulled the same thing when I we had an argument a long time ago here. 'Killing me with kindness' routine that comes off as condescending and ungenuine. ("I wish you luck and happiness!" after a huge debate and some negative feelings stirred) I can't decide if he's subtly sociopathic or just a big nerd.
With regards to the OP: I see lots of wasted desk time here in Shanghai too. But there is a much better understanding of deadlines and time efficiency...ie. knowing how much time a task should take and not handing it onto someone at the last minute BS and expecting miracles. Much more respect for people's personal time in general. |
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Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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Janny,
yeap, would have to agree. I think SR just likes to disagree and sees an argument as an opportunity to bond.  |
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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
Davizens is a new one for me. 
Got a question for ya, SR - how many of the major Korean companies have you worked for/in?
Because I've worked in nearly all of them at one time or another (and for some, a number of their subsidiaries). And honestly, man - what you say can't happen as a stereotype, does happen.
Now, I'm NOT saying it's EVERY company, or EVERY team, but it's something I've seen way more than I ever did back home. Heck, my last company I worked for here had an extra office on every floor... for sleeping! This was one of the top firms in Korea, and those guys worked insane hours... and drank a fair bit too!
BUT... they were also very smart people. So while I might not have enjoyed their progress or efficiency, they did get their jobs done. |
ironically enough, my company also has a sleeping office called a "healing room" with a massaging recliner...
that said, koreans are indeed incredibly unproductive for the number of hours worked. my coworkers take so many smoke breaks and coffee breaks that it forces them work extra hours. i explained to a korean friend how unproductive koreans are per hour, especially compared to places like france and they couldn't fathom it. i tried to explain to them that 7-8 hour work days with a lot of vacation time (a la, france) should be mandatory because it makes healthier and happier employees and thus more productive employees, and i could see the gears grinding with little comprehension. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Got a question for ya, SR - how many of the major Korean companies have you worked for/in? |
Well just one (Samsung Const., and fringe e-mail work for two others (Winia and iRiver).
However, some of my closest friends work for major Korean companies- and like I said, their experiences vary. Some are walking out the door at 5 all the time. Some are doing the stay till 10PM routine. Sometimes they stay till 10 because its a major project, sometimes its because of a super long meeting and someone being a windbag and stuff getting fixed.
What NONE of them are doing is spending their time constantly drinking coffee, posting selfies, chatting constantly on facebook, going out for BBQ dinners, and otherwise slacking off. Okay, a couple are, but they are schleps and were like that in college. By far the best indicator of work ethic and office behavior is not the culture of the person, but their habits in school and college. Those who would procrastinate and get distracted then, do so now. Those who were very diligent and constantly at work, are so at their jobs.
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| I think SR just likes to disagree and sees an argument as an opportunity to bond. |
Not the most outlandish theory.
For a bunch of people who can't stand Korean conformity and upbraid them for not being accepting of criticism, I do notice similar tendencies in the "bashers". Two sides of the same coin I've always maintained...
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| that said, koreans are indeed incredibly unproductive for the number of hours worked. |
Again, we're talking about working 50 hours per week vs. 40. 2 hours a day. That's what the data that declares them so inefficient indicates. And that's with all the fruit sellers, stationary store owners, GS25s, Parking structure waivers and bowers, and free sample E-Mart ajummas thrown in. But people are making out it out to be wake up at 6 and finish work at 11. But somehow the restaurants are all packed at 6 and everyone is getting drunk on soju, and THEN the project gets finished at 11 PM after everyone has puked and spat. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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I think that your buds have a solid work ethic. If they're not chatting on the comp at work, drinking coffee on extended lunches, hitting the sauna for a hang over, or doing out with coworkers... I'd say they sound like fine workers - and especially lucky if they get to leave at 5 most days.
But do they represent the majority? If most workers are like your upstanding buds... why would there be such high work hours and low efficiency?
You keep talking about fruit vendors and such - I'm talking about actual office workers. Guys who sleep in their offices. That's not made up, man. That's real.
As you hinted towards, there's the other side. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
You get upset at it when the KMedia does it. You can sniff it out, even if it isn't explicitly stated.
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I do? I can? Thanks for letting me know! Wow, your argument makes sense now that you've retroactively put words in my mouth.
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| How is it shoved in your face? |
Not the article. You and UM. I think I made a pretty reasonable first post, but you guys always come after people and force them to defend themselves after you twist their words and put words in their mouths (see above). Just look at this, apparently I'm always on this site screaming about K netizens and the Korean media. No proof, no backstory, no story at all. It's just a 'fact' now which is used to force me to respond.
Janny is right. I had a day of deskwarming and in my boredom I just played along with SR. But it's useless, I know, I've been here before. Even when proven wrong the goalposts get moved. I don't even care. SR can write his revisionist history and call me racist and tangle my quotes with those of others to weave whatever persecution narrative he wants. It can only be entertaining for so long.
So fine, Koreans are the most efficient and hard working people in the world. Everyone else is just jealous of them. That's why they lead every conceivable industry and are the world's leading superpower. Oh, great Mother Korea, if only us whities could learn from your greatness.
Now that's sarcasm!
edited to point out sarcasm to those who will use that paragraph to "prove" I'm a hypocrite in the next post. |
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Jodami
Joined: 08 Feb 2013
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| Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:55 am Post subject: |
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Steelrails seems pig ignorant. He obviously lives in cloud cuckoo land, as far as Korea and Koreans are concerned.
He's far far too uptight.
SR man - try getting laid once in a while.
Then, you might even find, that you won't have such a frequent urge, to type such long winded and repetitive essays.
Good lad.  |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| For what it is worth, there was an article in the KT not too long ago that said that for the first time ever more than half of Samsung's workforce is not Korean, so we do need to be careful about what we are talking about in terms of international companies. |
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Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
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| Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:19 am Post subject: |
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I used to have some business classes with KT and Samsung SD at the same period in time. KT appeared to be a lot more progressive in its HR policies while Samsung seemed more 'traditional'.
I think the inefficient critique is not as prevalent as it used to be. Both sides could be right.
This Kumbaya moment brought to you by me, OFE. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
You get upset at it when the KMedia does it. You can sniff it out, even if it isn't explicitly stated.
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I do? I can? Thanks for letting me know! Wow, your argument makes sense now that you've retroactively put words in my mouth.
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| How is it shoved in your face? |
Not the article. You and UM. I think I made a pretty reasonable first post, but you guys always come after people and force them to defend themselves after you twist their words and put words in their mouths (see above)... |
How did I shove anything in your face? I asked a question (which given your statements and claims) was reasonable and then I provided a link which shows that at least one Korean company seems to be doing things right. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Unposter wrote: |
| For what it is worth, there was an article in the KT not too long ago that said that for the first time ever more than half of Samsung's workforce is not Korean, so we do need to be careful about what we are talking about in terms of international companies. |
Yes...but who are the guys at the top (the people who make the decisions)?
Looks like the CEO and Board of Directors are all Koreans.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
[
TUM, you can't seriously be quoting their own blog for an accurate assessment of their worker's performance, are you?
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Well either they are lying or telling the truth. If they are lying it can be found on Google and the same with the truth.
But if you want to disprove something you can't just say "They could be lying".
Either provide proof or take it at face value.
But if you want other independent links then here you are
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-03-28/how-samsung-became-the-worlds-no-dot-1-smartphone-maker
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| Since Lee took control of Samsung in 1987, sales have surged to $179 billion last year, making it the world’s largest electronics company by revenue. That makes Samsung Electronics the world’s largest electronics company by revenue. |
http://blog.gsmarena.com/samsung-throws-google-off-the-second-spot-in-2013-most-innovative-companies-list-apple-still-on-top/
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| Every year Boston Consulting Group makes a list of the most innovative companies and for 2013 Samsung has beaten Google and has taken its second spot. This leaves Google in third position, after maintaining the second spot for seven consecutive years since 2006. |
You simply don't get to be the largest (by revenue) electronics company in the world AND the second most innovative by having a dysfunctional work ethic and workforce.
Now this is not to say that there aren't some dysfunctional companies in Korea...but by and large it seems that Samsung for one is doing something right. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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You know, I'm starting to feel this frustration many do when discussing issues with SR and TUM.
I did NOT say that Samsung is not doing something right. This topic is NOT about Samsung. Samsung does NOT represent all of Korea. I don't see Samsung in the title of this thread.
This is about Korean working hours... and how goofy the original estimate of 2000 hours was.
If you want to trot out Samsung as an example, fine - but talk about their workers, NOT their profits. Post links to worker efficiency or how many hours worked - because THAT is the topic at hand. |
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KimchiNinja
Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Well Koreans are certainly known for working long hours and I see it in my office. They work late every single day. They are efficient in that they get things done the instant it needs doing. But they also do a lot of pointless "facetime" (office time when they don't have any work to do) because if they don't stay as long as the other guy rumors will spread. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
You know, I'm starting to feel this frustration many do when discussing issues with SR and TUM.
I did NOT say that Samsung is not doing something right. This topic is NOT about Samsung. Samsung does NOT represent all of Korea. I don't see Samsung in the title of this thread.
This is about Korean working hours... and how goofy the original estimate of 2000 hours was.
If you want to trot out Samsung as an example, fine - but talk about their workers, NOT their profits. Post links to worker efficiency or how many hours worked - because THAT is the topic at hand. |
Excuse me...but I can't remember the last time WE discussed any issues. In fact I think they have been few and far in between, so I don't know about this sense of frustration, but in any case that's all on you. I was speaking to someone else not you.
You choose for your own reasons to interject yourself into the conversation...which is fine but I was objecting to the claim of 'inefficiency". Specifically this one.
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| They certainly work longer hours, but are extremely, to a comedic level, inefficient. |
THIS was the point that I was disputing.
I quoted Samsung as an example of a rebuttal. You then asked if I was quoting a blog as proof. So I provided more links...which then you quickly dismiss as not on topic. However the topic between the poster I was responding to and myself WAS on "inefficiency" and I wasn't the one who bought it up, HE was.
But hey you want links to how many hours worked, who am I to disappoint?
So getting back "on topic", what is your opinion on this?
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20120509001018
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| Samsung Electronics said Wednesday it is currently testing a new work system which allows its employees to stay on the job for only four hours during one of the five working days.... |
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They, however, still need to fulfill the requirement to work at least 40 hours per week.
This indicates that the employees could choose to work nine hours for four working days in order to have one day with the four-hour minimum. |
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