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Koreans work 2000 hours a month?
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Janny we never had an argument sorry..unless you mean when you were using one of your other accounts... Laughing

As for "killing you with kindness", that is your interpretation of things I suppose. I do tend to wish people good luck in whatever they do and I do mean it. I have no idea why that would offend you or one of your other accounts.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. BlackCat wrote:
PatrickGHBusan wrote:

Great post. .


Very Happy

It's not about admitting you're wrong or right. It's about realizing you're either saying the same thing differently or are just mere degrees off of the same point.


Agreed. This happens a lot here and nit seems to be a byproduct of online discussions.
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The Cosmic Hum



Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PatrickGHBusan wrote:
Mr. BlackCat wrote:
PatrickGHBusan wrote:

Great post. .


Very Happy

It's not about admitting you're wrong or right. It's about realizing you're either saying the same thing differently or are just mere degrees off of the same point.


Agreed. This happens a lot here and nit seems to be a byproduct of online discussions.

Bondrock started this thread as a joke...and it was funny.

Now it has become some kind of humorless self-congratulating semantic circle jerk kinda joke.
No longer funny.

Bondrock...still love your posts.
Cool
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IPayInCash



Joined: 27 Jul 2013
Location: Away from all my board stalkers :)

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn that page 9 was brutal. Talk about a beatdown. Like a pack of hungry pit bulls left alone with a quadriplegic toddler. lol

Poor Steelrails is back to the drawing board, combining posts from different posters to argue another point that has nothing to do with the OP. Poor guy. You cant win them all. And in his case... literally. Laughing
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maitaidads



Joined: 08 Oct 2012

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IPayInCash wrote:
Like a pack of hungry pit bulls left alone with a quadriplegic toddler. lol Laughing


Humor? I'm sure Gary Larson is drawing this as we speak to add to his 2014 calendar.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Cosmic Hum wrote:
PatrickGHBusan wrote:
Mr. BlackCat wrote:
PatrickGHBusan wrote:

Great post. .


Very Happy

It's not about admitting you're wrong or right. It's about realizing you're either saying the same thing differently or are just mere degrees off of the same point.


Agreed. This happens a lot here and nit seems to be a byproduct of online discussions.

Bondrock started this thread as a joke...and it was funny.

Now it has become some kind of humorless self-congratulating semantic circle jerk kinda joke.
No longer funny.

Bondrock...still love your posts.
Cool


It was funny and some of it produced some pretty interesting debate on working hours and work culture. Of course, a lot of it devolved into the classic Dave's Mud Pit.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there is one thing we are failing to consider in this whole "salaryman" debate and looking at working hours- The majority of Korean workers are not office workers, and even of office workers, you still have ones in lower levels that are half office/half services and tend not to do the whole grind.

Odds are the people we see filling up the restaurants from 6-8 are nurses, bank clerks, real estate agents, and other guys with suits and ties, but perhaps not too high on the totem pole.

My personal experience with office workers is limited to some friends from high school and church back in the States who have since moved back to Seoul, people in my hometown, and cities in Gyeongnam. While they all pull the occasional work till 10, they don't do it habitually. 6ish is about the norm.

And where I'm from, EMart DOES close at 10.

Quote:
Really Steelrails? you think Wallmart and Emart only opened a part of their store 10 years ago for 24 hours? As if they would close off the grocery part? Ridonclulous!


I can see limited profits and large costs associated with keeping the grocery section open at 3AM, they might have been trying it as part of a greater strategy to dominate the market long-term.

May I ask you all- Why do so many shops and restaurants close at 10? Shouldn't they be doing MAD business then? Why do the higher end department stores close at 10? Why do baseball games start at 630?
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see that working hours/patterns would vary from California, to Ohio, to NYC. In Canada, we often think that ppl in Vancouver golf every afternoon, and TO ppl put in too many hours. I'm guessing that there is variation in hours in Korea too. SR, if Gyeongnam is your area, please leave room for the possibility that Seoul is a different beast. Different work environments. Different store and restaurant hours.

You can continue to argue if ya like, that's you're call. I'm guessing ppl in this thread aren't going to sway your opinion. But most know me as a fairly honest poster on here - and I'm telling ya honestly - with all of my experience in korean offices, your feelings on work hours there don't match up. At least not in Seoul.
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atwood



Joined: 26 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe E-mart in your area closes at 10 but of the store hours listed on the E-Mart website, all close at 12, or in the case of the stores on Jeju-do, 11. But the hours for the stores not in major metropolitan areas aren't given, so maybe. And I wouldn't line a bird cage with that crap about only parts of the store being open.

You finally admit you have little personal experience but then you go right back to making wild-assed crazy guesses and trying to pass them off as objective.

I see real estate offices open late at night. Nurses work all kinds of hours. What about eyeglass shops? Those guys and gals work crazy hours. 24 hour McDonald's and Lotteria and BK will probably stay open longer to compete. Night markets, seven-day work weeks, GS25s and more.

So your examples ain't so good. Why not just stop with your own personal experience and not extrapolate from it a bunch of assumptions?
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Mr. BlackCat"]
Quote:

Second, I wasn't even commenting on the data or stories themselves. My point was that UM originally told us to ignore the stats about Korean inefficiency and instead only look at a couple of articles about Samsung. Then, when others brought in examples of various businesses they've worked at, UM told them those examples were meaningless and instead we should only trust a different set of stats. I was pointing out the hypocrisy in his posts, not arguing about the truth behind the examples or stats (I think there's truth to all of it).

.


Stop making up false accusations. Anyone can scroll back and see I never said what you are claiming I said.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Corea wrote:
. TUM, I fear you're relying too much on newspapers and gov reports - I suggest you actually talk to salarymen in Seoul to find out what it's like here.



I would...but I live several hours from Seoul. And anyway I'm fairly aware that if I were to post a number of such conversations and most did not jive with what a few people are saying on here, people (not including you) would either say that my experiences do not reflect the norm or that I'm pulling a "Black Cat" (making it up).
And while anecdotal reports are fine as far as they go, when one is talking about a whole country they lack authority.

As for government reports I would say the OECD reports are pretty accurate. And anyway now you are talking about just what some SALARYMEN do while I'm including ALL jobs. The original argument wasn't about how inefficient salarymen are. It was about how inefficient Koreans are.
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Captain Corea wrote:
. TUM, I fear you're relying too much on newspapers and gov reports - I suggest you actually talk to salarymen in Seoul to find out what it's like here.



I would...but I live several hours from Seoul. And anyway I'm fairly aware that if I were to post a number of such conversations and most did not jive with what a few people are saying on here, people (not including you) would either say that my experiences do not reflect the norm or that I'm pulling a "Black Cat" (making it up).
And while anecdotal reports are fine as far as they go, when one is talking about a whole country they lack authority.

As for government reports I would say the OECD reports are pretty accurate. And anyway now you are talking about just what some SALARYMEN do while I'm including ALL jobs. The original argument wasn't about how inefficient salarymen are. It was about how inefficient Koreans are.


But TUM, when we're talking about efficiency of workers, we usually talk about our coworkers. I have no idea how efficient farmers, KFC workers, or room salon girls are here - I've never worked with them. They ARE Korean workers, but I'm not able to assess their hours or efficiency simply because of my lack of experience with them.

So when we're discussing efficiency, chances are any personal examples on this forum are going to come from schools or offices. So I really don't think it's out of sorts to use them for examples.

As for the OECD reports - do you feel their accurate as to the number of assaults in this country? Or are their cultural issues that would skew it?
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KimchiNinja



Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Corea wrote:
I have no idea how efficient farmers, KFC workers, or room salon girls are here...


Oh, the girls are quite efficient. Cool
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KimchiNinja wrote:
Captain Corea wrote:
I have no idea how efficient farmers, KFC workers, or room salon girls are here...


Oh, the girls are quite efficient. Cool


I was wondering who would jump on that first. lol
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Corea wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Captain Corea wrote:
. TUM, I fear you're relying too much on newspapers and gov reports - I suggest you actually talk to salarymen in Seoul to find out what it's like here.



I would...but I live several hours from Seoul. And anyway I'm fairly aware that if I were to post a number of such conversations and most did not jive with what a few people are saying on here, people (not including you) would either say that my experiences do not reflect the norm or that I'm pulling a "Black Cat" (making it up).
And while anecdotal reports are fine as far as they go, when one is talking about a whole country they lack authority.

As for government reports I would say the OECD reports are pretty accurate. And anyway now you are talking about just what some SALARYMEN do while I'm including ALL jobs. The original argument wasn't about how inefficient salarymen are. It was about how inefficient Koreans are.


But TUM, when we're talking about efficiency of workers, we usually talk about our coworkers. I have no idea how efficient farmers, KFC workers, or room salon girls are here - I've never worked with them. They ARE Korean workers, but I'm not able to assess their hours or efficiency simply because of my lack of experience with them.

So when we're discussing efficiency, chances are any personal examples on this forum are going to come from schools or offices. So I really don't think it's out of sorts to use them for examples.

As for the OECD reports - do you feel their accurate as to the number of assaults in this country? Or are their cultural issues that would skew it?



I agree that personal examples are mostly likely to come from schools or offices...no disagreement there. But that's what I'm trying to get at. These are only 2 sub sectors of the job market as a whole. What people are doing is taking their personal experiences with a few hundred people in a few tiny parts of that sector and expanding it to cover Korean workers here as a whole.
Sure they can be used as examples maybe...but only as examples of the sector they are in. But then that goes back to personal observation and printed data. And one can find both good and bad examples...so I don't think the claim of Koreans being particularly inefficient holds up given what they've accomplished.

As for the OECD reports...well no report on an entire nation can ever be 100% as there are always some factors that will skew it to one side or another. I feel they are likely as close as we are going to get...unless anyone knows of a more authoritative source.

What kind of assaults are we talking about? Domestic or street fights? Or overall?
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