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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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 Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:43 pm Post subject: question on were vs. had been |
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I have a grammar question that I hope someone can help with. Please take a look at the below:
“But where is the body? If someone has been killed, there must be a dead body.”
“Let’s look in the vacant lot behind this building. Maybe we’ll find a clue there,” said Tom.
Tom and Rick searched the vacant lot but didn’t find anything. If there were a body, the officers would have seen it right away when they checked the scene several days earlier.
Is the underlined "were" correct? It sounds OK to me (meaning 'if one
existed') but I wonder if grammatically it needs to be "had been"
(meaning at that specific time). Could someone please let me know which
form/forms are correct - and why.
Thanks a lot. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| 'Had been' is correct because the event took place in the past (when the officers searched the place earlier). 'If there were a body' refers to the present. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| I am going to say that both are correct, and that it might be a British thing to say "had been". I think in American English at least it is fine. It is called the past subjunctive which refers to a rule or conditional to be applied in the future. Is it present because it could happen in the near future? Gray area. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
| I am going to say that both are correct, and that it might be a British thing to say "had been". I think in American English at least it is fine. It is called the past subjunctive which refers to a rule or conditional to be applied in the future. Is it present because it could happen in the near future? Gray area. |
This is completely wrong. YTMND has a tenuous grasp of grammar and should usually be ignored.
If X had + past participle, Y would have + past participle
This is the third conditional, and is used to speak hypothetically about unrealized past events.
If I had woken up earlier this morning, I wouldn't have missed the bus.
If X + past tense, Y would + verb
This is the second conditional, and is used to speak hypothetically about impossible, very unlikely or untrue situations, present or future.
If I were taller (now), I'd like basketball more.
If Korea won the World Cup next year, I would be shocked.
In the example given, the two different conditionals are being combined. The first part "If there were a body" is assuming a present (at the time of Tom and Rick stopping their search) unlikely situation, which makes sense given the evidence, and the second part "the officers would have seen it" is used because it is describing a hypothetical past result. It is fine to mix conditionals like this; I probably would have kept it all third conditional to emphasize that the searching (and the story being told in writing) is all in the past, but it's a personal preference. Both are possible depending on how you choose to frame the "present".
It has nothing to do with British and American English or subjunctive mood. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
In the example given, the two different conditionals are being combined. The first part "If there were a body" is assuming a present (at the time of Tom and Rick stopping their search) unlikely situation, which makes sense given the evidence, and the second part "the officers would have seen it" is used because it is describing a hypothetical past result. It is fine to mix conditionals like this; I probably would have kept it all third conditional to emphasize that the searching (and the story being told in writing) is all in the past, but it's a personal preference. Both are possible depending on how you choose to frame the "present".
It has nothing to do with British and American English or subjunctive mood.
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I take your point about mixed conditionals but they were talking about whether or not there was a body in that particular place when the police searched the area a few days earlier. Not whether a body existed in general terms. So I still think both forms should be in the past. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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In the example given, the two different conditionals are being combined. The first part "If there were a body" is assuming a present (at the time of Tom and Rick stopping their search) unlikely situation, which makes sense given the evidence, and the second part "the officers would have seen it" is used because it is describing a hypothetical past result. It is fine to mix conditionals like this; I probably would have kept it all third conditional to emphasize that the searching (and the story being told in writing) is all in the past, but it's a personal preference. Both are possible depending on how you choose to frame the "present".
It has nothing to do with British and American English or subjunctive mood.
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I take your point about mixed conditionals but they were talking about whether or not there was a body in that particular place when the police searched the area a few days earlier. Not whether a body existed in general terms. So I still think both forms should be in the past. |
Actually, technically, the story suggests that Tim and Rick searched several days after the police, so in their "present," it could be argued they may still have found the body (e.g., if the police were incompetent) and thus it is acceptable to frame the conditional from Tim and Rick's time frame, rather than the original police search.
BUT: I would use third conditional as well, as it reads better. More logical. After all, if the police had found it, it would never have been there for Tim and Rick to find anyway.
So...I agree with you, actually. But I think it's passable from a contextual POV. It's certainly not "wrong enough" to be a suitable test question, if that's what it is. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:32 am Post subject: Re: question on were vs. had been |
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| raewon wrote: |
I have a grammar question that I hope someone can help with. Please take a look at the below:
“But where is the body? If someone has been killed, there must be a dead body.”
“Let’s look in the vacant lot behind this building. Maybe we’ll find a clue there,” said Tom.
Tom and Rick searched the vacant lot but didn’t find anything. If there were a body, the officers would have seen it right away when they checked the scene several days earlier.
Is the underlined "were" correct? It sounds OK to me (meaning 'if one
existed') but I wonder if grammatically it needs to be "had been"
(meaning at that specific time). Could someone please let me know which
form/forms are correct - and why.
Thanks a lot. |
Hello Raewon,
were is correct.
Unfortunately, as can be seen from the above posters good analysis...
The grammar is not the problem...it is the logic.
If someone has been killed, there must be a dead body.” ( not a valid conclusion)
If there were a body, the officers would have seen it right away when they checked the scene several days earlier. (vague/faulty premise, and again, not a valid conclusion)
Given a vague premise and faulty conclusions, different grammatical structures could be used...with equal vagueness.
Not sure if this is of any use, but your initial take on the grammar is correct, and it seems possible that the uncertainty in your position stems from the logic and not the grammar. |
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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks a lot for all of the replies. They were helpful. And as usual, I think Cosmic Hum is right - the logic behind the situation was giving me lots
of grief. |
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isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
| I am going to say that both are correct, and that it might be a British thing to say "had been". I think in American English at least it is fine. It is called the past subjunctive which refers to a rule or conditional to be applied in the future. Is it present because it could happen in the near future? Gray area. |
This is completely wrong. YTMND has a tenuous grasp of grammar and should usually be ignored.
If X had + past participle, Y would have + past participle
This is the third conditional, and is used to speak hypothetically about unrealized past events.
If I had woken up earlier this morning, I wouldn't have missed the bus.
If X + past tense, Y would + verb
This is the second conditional, and is used to speak hypothetically about impossible, very unlikely or untrue situations, present or future.
If I were taller (now), I'd like basketball more.
If Korea won the World Cup next year, I would be shocked.
In the example given, the two different conditionals are being combined. The first part "If there were a body" is assuming a present (at the time of Tom and Rick stopping their search) unlikely situation, which makes sense given the evidence, and the second part "the officers would have seen it" is used because it is describing a hypothetical past result. It is fine to mix conditionals like this; I probably would have kept it all third conditional to emphasize that the searching (and the story being told in writing) is all in the past, but it's a personal preference. Both are possible depending on how you choose to frame the "present".
It has nothing to do with British and American English or subjunctive mood. |
^This. The faulty logic has nothing to do with it (though, it is distracting). You can make nonsensical sentences that are still grammatically correct. They don't have to be logical.
My two cents: I think "had been" is better because they are describing a search party that started and ended in the past. (...even if there were a body and it was still there because no one found it).
It's like when I write to a friend, "I was wondering how you were doing..." instead of "I was wondering how you're (you are) doing..."
I may be wondering how they are now, but the rules of grammar would have me write it with all in the past tense. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| isitts wrote: |
| You can make nonsensical sentences that are still grammatically correct. They don't have to be logical. |
Thank you. We agree on that part.
Wasn't that clear in my previous post?
The grammar was ok...the logic was not.
Here is a famous line demonstrating just that point.
Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.
| Quote: |
| The faulty logic has nothing to do with it. |
We disagree on this part.
It has something to do with it.
Raewon, Ed, and Transmogrifier are all excellent grammarians...something was causing some confusion...perhaps it was in the semantics and not the grammar. |
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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:04 am Post subject: |
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Both options sit fine with me too.
An argument could also be made for "If there was a body..." being perfectly acceptable.
Insistence on the subjunctive mood is more & more becoming just the railing of stodgy prescriptivists. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| It's like when I write to a friend, "I was wondering how you were doing..." instead of "I was wondering how you're (you are) doing..." |
The rule of past tense is for reported speech. It doesn't amount to a hill of beans when it applies to a "friend".
Know when and when not to use a rule. |
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