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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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 Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Normal teenagers do not grow dope and keep the drug stashes for others in their bedroom. |
This isn't nearly as troubling as his manufacture of "purple drank." |
Which is likely why the skittles and ice tea were bought. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Normal teenagers do not grow dope and keep the drug stashes for others in their bedroom. |
This isn't nearly as troubling as his manufacture of "purple drank." |
Which is likely why the skittles and ice tea were bought. |
You're more generous than I would be. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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None of this really matters.
The physical evidence and eye witness testimony agrees with GZ's assertion that TM was on top of him and beating him. In Florida such a situation allows for self defense, including lethal force.
While we can not scientifically prove that GZ is honestly describing the event, we can confidently assert that 'shadow of a doubt' is violated.
Thug or honor roll student, TM is dead because he was beating the hell out of a man with a gun. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Did you go to high school in a maximum security prison? |
No, a normal American high school. Which, incidentally is rather comparable to a county jail in the level of crime and penchant for crime.
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| Fine we'll talk about what Trayvon was doing at the moment. He was attempting to kill Zimmerman. At least that is Zimmerman's story and a court found it valid. |
Wrong, the JURY said there was insufficient evidence to contradict his testimony beyond a reasonable doubt.
Also, Zimmerman would have been justified in shooting Trayvon if he feared for his life, regardless of whether Trayvon meant to kill him or not. The evidence is inconclusive as to whether or not Trayvon wanted to kill Zimmerman.
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| A court weighted the evidence and found it compelling enough to set Zimmerman free. |
Again wrong, the JURY weighed the evidence and found it insufficient to convict Zimmerman of the charges brought against him.
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| So calling Trayvon a thug is not hyperbole or labeling...it's simply stating a fact. |
No, its hyperbole. For one thing, much of Trayvon's past was EXCLUDED from evidence. That meant it had no bearing on the jury's finding.
It is not stating a fact, it is expressing an opinion.
Would you label every single person in the U.S. who has ever gotten in a violent fight and dealt drugs AS A JUVENILE as a "thug"?
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| Growing drugs, attacking people, multiple bans from school, and carrying a weapon. Sounds like a thug IMHO |
Sounds like 25% of the people in high school and college, many of whom lead perfectly normal and law abiding lives now. That stuff was for show, and misguided hormones, not real thugs.
I don't think you've ever met a REAL thug. If you knew REAL thugs, you would know Trayvon is not a thug. It just makes you sound like some ignorant sheltered suburbanite who gets all their information about the streets from magazines.
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| Those behaviors are definitely abnormal for nice suburban kids |
Sure about that? Kids fight and get in brawls. Sometimes they grab a hockey stick out of the trunk. Suburban kids smoke and grow pot, listen to rap music, get in fights, and maybe will bring a knife to school to look tough.
That doesn't mean they are actual thugs who wouldn't crap themselves in the presence of a REAL thug.
| Quote: |
None of this really matters.
The physical evidence and eye witness testimony agrees with GZ's assertion that TM was on top of him and beating him. In Florida such a situation allows for self defense, including lethal force.
While we can not scientifically prove that GZ is honestly describing the event, we can confidently assert that 'shadow of a doubt' is violated.
Thug or honor roll student, TM is dead because he was beating the hell out of a man with a gun. |
Titus nails it on the head. Stick to the facts that have been brough out in evidence. No need for labeling. Zimmerman's case speaks for itself without calling Trayvon a thug.
I don't think Zimmerman should have been convicted either, based on the evidence and the charges brought against him and Florida's laws. But that doesn't mean that he might be innocent of other charges or not liable in civil court or have some moral responsibility for this.
But seriously, calling Trayvon a thug just comes across as ridiculous and smacks of say, the police calling a group of people playing cards in their basement, "a major gambling ring". |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Can we just let this thread die. We know Steelrails and Sirius Black think he wasn't a thug, we know TUM thinks he was, and we all know all the reasons why for each opinion. I am a bit curious on how many pages you guys could keep saying the same things, though, so if you really want to, keep going. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| Quote: |
| Fine we'll talk about what Trayvon was doing at the moment. He was attempting to kill Zimmerman. At least that is Zimmerman's story and a court found it valid. |
(1)Wrong, the JURY said there was insufficient evidence to contradict his testimony beyond a reasonable doubt.
Also, Zimmerman would have been justified in shooting Trayvon if he feared for his life, regardless of whether Trayvon meant to kill him or not. The evidence is inconclusive as to whether or not Trayvon wanted to kill Zimmerman.
| Quote: |
| A court weighted the evidence and found it compelling enough to set Zimmerman free. |
(2) Again wrong, the JURY weighed the evidence and found it insufficient to convict Zimmerman of the charges brought against him.
| Quote: |
| So calling Trayvon a thug is not hyperbole or labeling...it's simply stating a fact. |
(3) No, its hyperbole. For one thing, much of Trayvon's past was EXCLUDED from evidence. That meant it had no bearing on the jury's finding.
It is not stating a fact, it is expressing an opinion.
Would you label every single person in the U.S. who has ever gotten in a violent fight and dealt drugs AS A JUVENILE as a "thug"?
| Quote: |
| Growing drugs, attacking people, multiple bans from school, and carrying a weapon. Sounds like a thug IMHO |
Sounds like 25% of the people in high school and college, many of whom lead perfectly normal and law abiding lives now. That stuff was for show, and misguided hormones, not real thugs.
I don't think you've ever met a REAL thug. If you knew REAL thugs, you would know Trayvon is not a thug. It just makes you sound like some ignorant sheltered suburbanite who gets all their information about the streets from magazines.
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| Those behaviors are definitely abnormal for nice suburban kids |
Sure about that? Kids fight and get in brawls. Sometimes they grab a hockey stick out of the trunk. Suburban kids smoke and grow pot, listen to rap music, get in fights, and maybe will bring a knife to school to look tough.
That doesn't mean they are actual thugs who wouldn't crap themselves in the presence of a REAL thug.
| Quote: |
None of this really matters.
The physical evidence and eye witness testimony agrees with GZ's assertion that TM was on top of him and beating him. In Florida such a situation allows for self defense, including lethal force.
While we can not scientifically prove that GZ is honestly describing the event, we can confidently assert that 'shadow of a doubt' is violated.
Thug or honor roll student, TM is dead because he was beating the hell out of a man with a gun. |
Titus nails it on the head. Stick to the facts that have been brough out in evidence. No need for labeling. Zimmerman's case speaks for itself without calling Trayvon a thug.
I don't think Zimmerman should have been convicted either, based on the evidence and the charges brought against him and Florida's laws. But that doesn't mean that he might be innocent of other charges or not liable in civil court or have some moral responsibility for this.
(4)But seriously, calling Trayvon a thug just comes across as ridiculous and smacks of say, the police calling a group of people playing cards in their basement, "a major gambling ring". |
I took the liberty of introducing numbers on the points in your post.
1. There were only two stories of what went down at trial... Zimmerman's and the prosecution's. If there was insufficient evidence to contradict his testimony...then it is his version that gets accepted by default...remember presumed innocent until proven guilty.
2. "insufficient to convict="set Zimmerman free". You're arguing semantics here.
3. No it's a fact. I asserted (and others backed me on this) that Trayvon's behavior was NOT normal teenage behavior and that yes he sounded like a thug. There are different variations of thugs you know...there's just not ONE REAL type as you keep insisting.
4. No calling Trayvon a thug smacks of someone who is calling a spade a spade.
Seriously it sounds like you want Trayvon not to be considered a thug because (as you claim) you and your friends did much the same things back in high school. Sorry but that neither excuses you or your friends or Trayvon's behavior. You and your friends grew out of this thuggish behavior while Trayvon never got the chance to due to his own thuggish actions. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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1. There were only two stories of what went down at trial... Zimmerman's and the prosecution's. If there was insufficient evidence to contradict his testimony...then it is his version that gets accepted by default...remember presumed innocent until proven guilty.
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So, OJ didn't kill his wife? That's what the jury found? Or did it find that there was insufficient evidence to convict him?
There's a HUGE difference between "innocent" and "not guilty".
| Quote: |
| 2. "insufficient to convict="set Zimmerman free". You're arguing semantics here. |
See above.
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| No it's a fact. I asserted (and others backed me on this) that Trayvon's behavior was NOT normal teenage behavior and that yes he sounded like a thug. There are different variations of thugs you know...there's just not ONE REAL type as you keep insisting. |
Yes, Trayvon was perhaps a wannabe thug. Wannabe, as in "not actual, pretend, fake". Something that is not actual, pretend or fake, IS NOT.
Trayvon's behavior was not normal, but neither was it unusual. This isn't exactly rare behavior.
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| No calling Trayvon a thug smacks of someone who is calling a spade a spade. |
Isn't it possible, with you not growing up in a high school where such behavior was common, and not having friends who engaged in such behavior, and not having been exposed through experience to that scene, that you might not be able to correctly identify and analyze who Trayvon is?
Trayvon is a thug the way a Mazda Miata is a sports car. Amateurs who don't know anything about cars might think that. People with half a clue know better. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Sure about that? Kids fight and get in brawls. Sometimes they grab a hockey stick out of the trunk. Suburban kids smoke and grow pot, listen to rap music, get in fights, and maybe will bring a knife to school to look tough. |
The overwhelming majority of my classmates in actual suburban America did not fight with weapons or get into brawls with any regularity. Those that did were abnormal, and were also likely to be suspended, get into trouble with the law, etc.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| That doesn't mean they are actual thugs who wouldn't crap themselves in the presence of a REAL thug. |
The extremity with which you view the word "thug" makes me wonder about the conditions under which you grew up. A fellow who attacked someone with a hockey stick would definitely qualify as a "thug" where I grew up, and someone who actually attacked an adult would be outright perplexing. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
None of this really matters.
The physical evidence and eye witness testimony agrees with GZ's assertion that TM was on top of him and beating him. In Florida such a situation allows for self defense, including lethal force.
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In every state this situation would be a matter of self-defense. The association of stand-your-ground with Martin's death turned out to be very wrong. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:07 am Post subject: |
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You didn't phrase your tangent correctly. Yes, they are likely being marketed to the youth. Yes, they are being purchased for the variety of flavors. No, they aren't being smoked for the tobacco inside (at least not initially - the craving does eventually develop, though).
And yes, Martin acted like a thug. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:42 am Post subject: |
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I used to smoke those Colt tipped small cigars. I wasn't a thug.
Thugs mostly use those cheap flavored cigars for smoking weed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg9dmU4U91E |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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Crap, shouldn't have posted while buzzed, totally worded everything wrong, and I didn't even get a response from TUM, which was my goal. Anyways, the jig is up and I can't get a straight answer.
I'm willing to bet that a goodly number of people who think Trayvon Martin is a "thug" and "drug manufacturer" also think that kids buy grape flavored Swisher Sweets to smoke because they are cheaper than cigarettes and they enjoy the grape flavoring.
I noticed that article on nbcnews.com last night and was astounded by the utter ignorance of what was going on there.
Let's try this one- If you don't know why brillo pads and roses in glass tubes are sold at the front counter at convenience stores, if you had to look it up, you don't know what a real thug is or not. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
[
Isn't it possible, with you not growing up in a high school where such behavior was common, and not having friends who engaged in such behavior, and not having been exposed through experience to that scene, that you might not be able to correctly identify and analyze who Trayvon is?
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Except there were a small proportion of "thugs" at my high school. They were definitely not in the majority. They showed up with regularity in the "police blotter" section of the weekly newspaper of the town...no names were mentioned but everyone knew who they were (small town of 5000 people) and yes the consensus was that they were "thugs".
They engaged in violence, carried weapons to school (one guy was caught with a switchblade), and some had a police record while still under 18. Suspensions and detentions were common among them.
No I didn't socialize or hang out with them...but like I said in a small town where everyone knows everyone else...it's hard to keep a low profile and especially so when you stick out like a sore thumb.
Yes they were thugs and so was Trayvon.
End of story. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Except there were a small proportion of "thugs" at my high school. They were definitely not in the majority. They showed up with regularity in the "police blotter" section of the weekly newspaper of the town...no names were mentioned but everyone knew who they were (small town of 5000 people) and yes the consensus was that they were "thugs".
They engaged in violence, carried weapons to school (one guy was caught with a switchblade), and some had a police record while still under 18. Suspensions and detentions were common among them.
No I didn't socialize or hang out with them...but like I said in a small town where everyone knows everyone else...it's hard to keep a low profile and especially so when you stick out like a sore thumb.
Yes they were thugs and so was Trayvon.
End of story. |
The 2 main high schools (not counting the 3 private, 1 remedial, and 1 public charter) in my town combined almost had the population of your entire community. Gonna go out on a limb and postulate that my Algebra class in 9th grade probably had more African-Americans in it than your entire community.
Dude everyone was dealing and smoking and fighting. People openly gave reports on drug paraphernalia in classes (my favorite- the teacher asked us to give an impromptu speech on the favorite thing in our backpack, some kid pulled out a pack of ZigZags and talked about them, while half the class saluted him by sparking up their lighters). Brawls, gangs, drugs, knives, B&Es, theft, vandalism, drunk teachers, stoned teachers.
Our school was also considered one of the best in the state and a feeder for the UofM, one of the best public universities in the world. Our students were raised with the expectation of going to college. If you were black and didn't know how to use chopsticks or weren't going to college, people would think you were messed up. That's where we were at. But hey, being young, hormonal, and 25 minutes away from Detroit, kids act a certain way.
I really think you lack the frame of reference to determine whether or not Trayvon is a "thug". Trayvon reminds me of like 35% of the kids I grew up with- black, white, Asian, Chaldean, Arab, Indian, African, Russian, etc. Probably another 50% were friends with them. Who wasn't trying to brag about how "hard" they were, getting in a few fights, maybe carrying a butterfly knife or baton into school, and smoking pot?
But people who aren't in the know and don't know the scene see a black kid and a few incidents and think he's some thug like they read about in the papers and see in movies.
Dude wasn't a thug. At worst a "punk", a delinquent. Really he was like every other teenager who wanted to look "hard" in high school so he could get laid, and once high school was over it was off to college and real life. Maybe at worst get in a bad fight at a frat party, get thrown in jail for two weeks and then wake up and sober up and go on with life and leave the act behind the way millions of other young men do. You know he had a big interest in aviation and had taken multiple courses preparing him for a career in it? Sounds like a real "thug" to me... 
But hey go back to calling him a "drug manufacturer" and saying he was in an "underground fight club". Lol. You actually think its like that? Please tell me you aren't that gullible and naive. |
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