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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| Popocatepetl wrote: |
| radcon wrote: |
| This European outrage is hypocritical. |
This is the attitude that is not going to do the US any favours. You've been caught red-handed doing something that clearly is wrong. Why not just say "sorry"?
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When are you going to apologize for your government, radcon! Say sorry!
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radcon
Joined: 23 May 2011
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| Popocatepetl wrote: |
| radcon wrote: |
| This European outrage is hypocritical. |
This is the attitude that is not going to do the US any favours. You've been caught red-handed doing something that clearly is wrong. Why not just say "sorry"?
| Quote: |
| All nations spy on each other. |
Do they?
You're saying the UK monitors all of Obamas private conversations?
Evidence?
Of course countries gather general intelligence about other countries in basic terms through their consulates, and conduct espionage on their percieved enemies...but when you bug the private cellphones of 30+ world leaders that are close allies and even personal friends- then you have crossed a line. |
Personal friends? Please elaborate. You admit that other countries conduct espionage on the US. Are they bugging private cellphones in the US? I don't know. But if they can do it, they are doing it. |
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radcon
Joined: 23 May 2011
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Popocatepetl wrote: |
| radcon wrote: |
| This European outrage is hypocritical. |
This is the attitude that is not going to do the US any favours. You've been caught red-handed doing something that clearly is wrong. Why not just say "sorry"?
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When are you going to apologize for your government, radcon! Say sorry!
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I'll apologize when the citizens of other nations apologize to the US for their politicians acting all indignant towards the US (especially during their elections) all the while they are loving the fact that the US has heavily subsidized their national defenses for decades. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| radcon wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Popocatepetl wrote: |
| radcon wrote: |
| This European outrage is hypocritical. |
This is the attitude that is not going to do the US any favours. You've been caught red-handed doing something that clearly is wrong. Why not just say "sorry"?
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When are you going to apologize for your government, radcon! Say sorry!
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I'll apologize when the citizens of other nations apologize to the US for their politicians acting all indignant towards the US (especially during their elections) all the while they are loving the fact that the US has heavily subsidized their national defenses for decades. |
You don't owe any apologies. You don't have any power over the U.S. government.
The newb is way off-base. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| The university agreed to settle a $1million (£617,360) federal suit for the students involved. The 21 claimants received $30,000 (£18,520) each and 15 others $6,666 (£4,115). |
Does anyone know if all 21 of these claimants were violently assaulted by the officer? Did the 15 others suffer only minor splash damage? Not only should this officer not receive any compensation for his self-inflicted "injuries," not only should he lose his job, his pension, and be sued for his eight months of tax-payer funded administrative leave, but he should also be serving jail time for what would have been rightly acknowledged as assault had any normal civilian been the offender. And, of course, apportion any appropriate blame to any superiors that may have ordered his actions, though, according to this hipster at least, he may have not only acted of his own accord, but also intervened to prevent other officers from carrying out more reasonable orders. |
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Popocatepetl
Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Location: Winter in Korea: One Perfect day after another
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| Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| radcon wrote: |
| Personal friends? Please elaborate. |
Obama and Merkel had (past tense) a very warm relationship. He welcomed her onto the white house lawn.
| Obama, June 2011 wrote: |
| "Germany, at the heart of Europe, is one of our strongest allies. And Chancellor Merkel is one of my closest global partners." |
Gathering general information is one thing, bugging their personal mobile phone for ten years is another.
Mexican president Felipe Calderon had a strong and positive alliance with the Obama administration. They hacked his personal email.
| Quote: |
| You admit that other countries conduct espionage on the US. |
Enemies and hostile regimes conduct espionage, yes. I'm sure Russia and North Korea has its spies conducting espionage on US soil.
But you're trying to claim that what the US has done to its friends is entirely normal and expected.
| Quote: |
| Are they bugging private cellphones in the US? I don't know. But if they can do it, they are doing it. |
Thats only your unsubstantiated conjecture in a mad attempt to deflect from your guilt.
Is the US ever wrong? In your opinion.
Should the US ever say sorry? In your opinion.
You see this is what I don't get about Americans. Because they come from the world superpower, they think that other nations are lower than them and therefore not worth apologizing to.
Your first reaction when being caught is very telling. It was:
a) Deny everything
b) Accuse "everyone else" of doing the same thing
c) Start explaining why you did it
d) Bring up unrelated ancient past wrongs that other countries have supposedly commited against you and then claim they have no right to take offence
e) Claim that every other country "would do the same thing if only they could"- thereby posing as smarter than everyone else
f) Ignore, obfuscate, bluster, hope it all goes away
g) Do anything but say "I'm sorry".
And you wonder why you have relationship problems?
if a person, let alone a nation- behaved like the above, they'd be sent for therapy. |
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yodanole
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: La Florida
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| Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Hear! Hear!
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| I guess there really are jurisdictions where you can murder your own parents and then receive the mercy of the court because you are an orphan, |
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Lucas
Joined: 11 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Your first reaction when being caught is very telling. It was:
a) Deny everything
b) Accuse "everyone else" of doing the same thing
c) Start explaining why you did it
d) Bring up unrelated ancient past wrongs that other countries have supposedly commited against you and then claim they have no right to take offence
e) Claim that every other country "would do the same thing if only they could"- thereby posing as smarter than everyone else
f) Ignore, obfuscate, bluster, hope it all goes away
g) Do anything but say "I'm sorry".
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Remove *country* and insert the word *person* and these descriptions sound like half of the Daves 'community'  |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| Popocatepetl wrote: |
Enemies and hostile regimes conduct espionage, yes. I'm sure Russia and North Korea has its spies conducting espionage on US soil.
But you're trying to claim that what the US has done to its friends is entirely normal and expected...
if a person, let alone a nation- behaved like the above, they'd be sent for therapy. |
Machiavelli would say you are naive about statecraft. From Chapter XV of The Prince:
Hence it is necessary for a prince wishing to hold his own to know how to do wrong, and to make use of it or not according to necessity. Therefore, putting on one side imaginary things concerning a prince, and discussing those which are real, I say that all men when they are spoken of, and chiefly princes for being more highly placed, are remarkable for some of those qualities which bring them either blame or praise; and thus it is that one is reputed liberal, another miserly, ...one is reputed generous, one rapacious; one cruel, one compassionate; one faithless, another faithful; one effeminate and cowardly, another bold and brave; one affable, another haughty; one lascivious, another chaste; one sincere, another cunning; one hard, another easy; one grave, another frivolous; one religious, another unbelieving, and the like. And I know that every one will confess that it would be most praiseworthy in a prince to exhibit all the above qualities that are considered good; but because they can neither be entirely possessed nor observed, for human conditions do not permit it, it is necessary for him to be sufficiently prudent that he may know how to avoid the reproach of those vices which would lose him his state; and also to keep himself, if it be possible, from those which would not lose him it; but this not being possible, he may with less hesitation abandon himself to them. And again, he need not make himself uneasy at incurring a reproach for those vices without which the state can only be saved with difficulty, for if everything is considered carefully, it will be found that something which looks like virtue, if followed, would be his ruin; whilst something else, which looks like vice, yet followed brings him security and prosperity. |
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Popocatepetl
Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Location: Winter in Korea: One Perfect day after another
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| Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Machiavelli would say you are naive |
You guys are awful cynical and this attitude is not going to help you.
The US was founded on, and has prospered on, values vastly different to those of Machiavelli I'm afraid.
Relations between states are essentially no different to relations between friends and people.
Would you be ok with your friend secretly listening in to all your private phone conversations for ten years?
Statecraft involves nurturing friendships. Sounds like your leaders are in need of basic, basic, social skills. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| Popocatepetl wrote: |
| Sounds like your leaders are in need of basic, basic, social skills. |
Are these some kind of elementary, computer language, social skills? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| Popocatepetl wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Machiavelli would say you are naive |
You guys are awful cynical and this attitude is not going to help you.
The US was founded on, and has prospered on, values vastly different to those of Machiavelli I'm afraid.
Relations between states are essentially no different to relations between friends and people.
Would you be ok with your friend secretly listening in to all your private phone conversations for ten years?
Statecraft involves nurturing friendships. Sounds like your leaders are in need of basic, basic, social skills. |
Are you sure?
France, as you may know, played a key role in our War of Independence (1775-1783). However, by 1793 France got itself involved in another war. Should the US have been faithful to the French alliance? The foundingest father of them all, G. Washington thought not.
[April 22, 1793]
By the President of the United States of America
A Proclamation
Whereas it appears that a state of war exists between Austria, Prussia, Sardinia, Great Britain, and the United Netherlands of the one part and France on the other, and the duty and interest of the United States require that they should with sincerity and good faith adopt and pursue a conduct friendly and impartial toward the belligerent powers:
I have therefore thought fit by these presents to declare the disposition of the United States to observe the conduct aforesaid toward those powers respectively, and to exhort and warn the citizens of the United States carefully to avoid all acts and proceedings whatsoever which may in any manner tend to contravene such disposition.
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:29 am Post subject: |
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Relations between states are essentially no different to relations between friends and people.
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Poppycock.
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Would you be ok with your friend secretly listening in to all your private phone conversations for ten years? |
I'm an individual, not a state, so the situation is different. |
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radcon
Joined: 23 May 2011
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| Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Popocatepetl wrote: |
Relations between states are essentially no different to relations between friends and people.
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Let's say that your "friend" dropped atomic bombs on your house, not once, but twice. Vaporized and burned up your family. Would you be inclined to continue this friendship? And yet the US and Japan are great allies today. What if the same friend declared that he wanted to exterminate your entire extended family, and he succeeded in killing a big chunk. Would you have warm feelings toward him? And yet Germany and Israel enjoy diplomatic relations.
Nations and governments are not people. The US was monitoring Merkel long before her good buddy Obama became president. The only thing Nations have are interests, which are ever changing. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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As luck would have it, Andrew Sullivan quoted Washington's Farewell Address today too on the same topic. 
The famous quote from Lord Palmerston, along with many others, is more stringent still: “England has no eternal friends, England has no perpetual enemies, England has only eternal and perpetual interests”. That’s why I object to notions of an “unbreakable bond” between the US and Israel. George Washington, in the most prescient and emphatic repudiation of AIPAC and the Cuban Lobby ever delivered, explained why a long, long time ago:
http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/30/countries-are-incapable-of-friendship/ |
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