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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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 Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:05 pm Post subject: The Japan-Korea relationship. |
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Almost seventy years after the end of the second world war, Japan and Korea are still at it. Whereas Europe has moved on, forged a political union, and set its eyes on the future, these two refuse to give it a rest. In Korea children are instilled with anti-Japanese sentiment from an early age. Even the new president is ratching things up, refusing to meet with Abe, and pouring cold water on any notion of a common defence area. Korea's grievances seem never-ending. One day it's Dokdo, the next it's visits to shrines, the next day it's comfort women, the following Monday it's demands for apologies for this, that or another. How much of this behavior is justified? I know there are nuts on the right in Japan who like to stir thing up, but can the Korean stance vis-a-vis Japan be justified so long after liberation? Has Japan adequately apologised for it's misdeeds, and if so what more is Korea asking for? As for the larger picture of the past, why can't they just agree to disagree? There are, after all, very real current problems facing both nations where joint action would undoubtedly be of mutual benefit.
In your opinion, who's to blame for this ongoing tension? |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| I think a large part of it stems from the fact that Korea didn't defeat Japan. If Korea would have kicked the Japanese into the sea. I suspect both parties would move forward easier. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Wake me when the Irish stop griping about the English. Or when the Scots stop trying to secede. Or the Catalans. Or the Flemish and the Walloons. Or when Greeks and Turks cool down. |
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cabeza
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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Both.
Yes Korea acts like a little b*tch over some things, but Japan are dicks about the war.
Yes, they have apologised multiple times, but it never lasts long and the next prime minister will come in and say the direct opposite.
Teaching your children to hate the country next door over a war that ended 70 years ago is stupid. |
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cabeza
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Wake me when the Irish stop griping about the English. Or when the Scots stop trying to secede. Or the Catalans. Or the Flemish and the Walloons. Or when Greeks and Turks cool down. |
Apples and oranges. As usual with you. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="cabeza"]
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Wake me when the Irish stop griping about the English. |
You in a time warp, bro? Please stay on topic. I'm sure you've opinions on this, but bringing in Turks, Catalans, Scots and Martians from the get go helps noone. Just keep repeating, "I will stay focused on the topic being discussed. I will stay focused on the topic being discussed." I bet you could do it if you really, really tried. Give it a go. Otherwise let the adults discuss this topic without your snide interruptions. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| cabeza wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Wake me when the Irish stop griping about the English. Or when the Scots stop trying to secede. Or the Catalans. Or the Flemish and the Walloons. Or when Greeks and Turks cool down. |
Apples and oranges. As usual with you. |
None of those is exactly the same and comparable, either to Korea or each other. But Korea is not comparable to France and Nazi Germany in WWII either.
Funny, you can see how imperfect my comparison is, but no eyes towards the OP's.
| Quote: |
| aching your children to hate the country next door over a war that ended 70 years ago is stupid. |
Would have been useful in 1940, 70 years after the Franco-Prussian war ended. Just sayin...
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As far as actual fault, cabez is right. Both are at fault for basically those reasons. It serves to whip up political support. What they really needed was for Park Chung Hee or Chun Doo Hwan to do what military strongmen can do- hammer out an agreement with a hated neighbor.
The problem is that everyone is looking 30-50 years down the line when the US is gone and China and Japan goes from a slow simmer to something more. Korea can't commit itself to being Japan's defense partner. That would be...unwise. |
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cabeza
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
None of those is exactly the same and comparable, either to Korea or each other. But Korea is not comparable to France and Nazi Germany in WWII either.
Funny, you can see how imperfect my comparison is, but no eyes towards the OP's.
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He didn't say France and Germany he said Western Europe. But anyway...
The examples you originally cited all use countries and situations where ethnic/linguistic/religious groups are dominated or controlled by another. Japan left Korea in 1945 and haven't looked like coming back since.
| Quote: |
| The problem is that everyone is looking 30-50 years down the line when the US is gone and China and Japan goes from a slow simmer to something more. Korea can't commit itself to being Japan's defense partner. That would be...unwise. |
See, Steelrails is capable of producing rays of insight like this and terrible analogies like the other stuff all within the same post. |
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nicwr2002
Joined: 17 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:24 am Post subject: Re: The Japan-Korea relationship. |
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| Smithington wrote: |
Almost seventy years after the end of the second world war, Japan and Korea are still at it. Whereas Europe has moved on, forged a political union, and set its eyes on the future, these two refuse to give it a rest. In Korea children are instilled with anti-Japanese sentiment from an early age. Even the new president is ratching things up, refusing to meet with Abe, and pouring cold water on any notion of a common defence area. Korea's grievances seem never-ending. One day it's Dokdo, the next it's visits to shrines, the next day it's comfort women, the following Monday it's demands for apologies for this, that or another. How much of this behavior is justified? I know there are nuts on the right in Japan who like to stir thing up, but can the Korean stance vis-a-vis Japan be justified so long after liberation? Has Japan adequately apologised for it's misdeeds, and if so what more is Korea asking for? As for the larger picture of the past, why can't they just agree to disagree? There are, after all, very real current problems facing both nations where joint action would undoubtedly be of mutual benefit.
In your opinion, who's to blame for this ongoing tension? |
The Japanese government has never formally apologized for it's actions unlike Germany. That's why Korea and China still hold a grudge against Japan. Japanese students aren't even taught about what happened in WWII in school either. Japan did some jacked up things to Koreans and Chinese, similar to that of the Nazis. Visiting the Yasukuni Shrine is what pisses everyone off because that shrine worships all the fallen soldiers including those that performed terrible acts in Korea. So, for a political leader to visit that shrine means bad press from Korea and China. |
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The Japanese government has never formally apologized for it's actions unlike Germany. That's why Korea and China still hold a grudge against Japan. |
That's not true. Many past Prime Ministers have apologized for it's actions towards Korea and Korea received financial compensation for, among other things, comfort women.
The main problem lies with the lack of consistency in Japan's attitudes to its history. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| jazzmaster wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The Japanese government has never formally apologized for it's actions unlike Germany. That's why Korea and China still hold a grudge against Japan. |
That's not true. Many past Prime Ministers have apologized for it's actions towards Korea and Korea received financial compensation for, among other things, comfort women.
The main problem lies with the lack of consistency in Japan's attitudes to its history. |
Actually he's sorta right. Japan has always issued "statements of regret", which in diplomatic speak are not the same as formal apologies. The United States (and other countries) does this sometimes when it accidentally kill civilians during say, a drone strike. It's about limiting liability and the like. When it does pay out compensation and the like, it usually issues accompanying statement with subtle disclaimers as to full responsibility and genuine apology.
Japan's failure to do so, while potentially morally questionable, is certainly rational from their point of view.
One should remember that in an East Asian context, such actions might not carry the same weight and sincerity culturally that they might amongst other nations. The Japanese higher-ups weren't exactly eager to resign in disgrace/throw themself off a cliff as a sign of genuine remorse as might be expected. But again, that's a rational decision by the Japanese. |
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rabidcake
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:11 am Post subject: |
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[/quote]
He didn't say France and Germany he said Western Europe. But anyway...
[/quote]
Dang, last time I checked I was pretty sure France and Germany were in Western Europe. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| jazzmaster wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The Japanese government has never formally apologized for it's actions unlike Germany. That's why Korea and China still hold a grudge against Japan. |
That's not true. Many past Prime Ministers have apologized for it's actions towards Korea and Korea received financial compensation for, among other things, comfort women.
The main problem lies with the lack of consistency in Japan's attitudes to its history. |
As stated by SR, Japan issued statements of regret but never did issue a formal apology or admission of guilt for the war crimes perpetrated by imperial soldiers in Korea, China and in many other Japan-conquered parts of asia.
Korea is also playing a diplomatic game here.
OP:
So the ongoing tension is due to Japan and Korea.
You could say the same about the tension between Japan and China concerning some islands and the adjoining fishing rights.
As for Japan itself, the PM there, Abe is pretty nationalistic and has hinted that he wants to re-open the consititution to make amendements concerning Japan's armed forces. This will always stir up anger from Korea and China.
There are basically regional tensions.
However, one thing tends to get overlooked in many of these discussions: Japan invaded Korea in 1910 and occupied it until 1945. That is 35 years of occupation and it was not some benevolent rule either. Such a thing leaves traces both physical and psychological. |
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cabeza
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| rabidcake wrote: |
Dang, last time I checked I was pretty sure France and Germany were in Western Europe. |
You dont say?
Thanks for the info.
They aren't the only countries there are they, which is the point I was making. |
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cabeza
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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So what needs to happen for something to be considered "an apology"?
Because they have said "sorry" officially a bunch of times. Do they need to draw up some document which the Japanese government (and Emperor) sign saying "we are really really sorry"?
There was a line in the 1965 normalization treaty that stated that, kind of.
The thing is, they could draw up such a document, get every person in Japan to sign the thing and the next week some douche politician will be back at Yasukui. Or Ishihara will go on one of his spiels about the noble ideals of the Imperial Japanese army and the whole thing will start up again. |
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