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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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Popocatepetl
Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Location: Winter in Korea: One Perfect day after another
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 Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| I cannot speak to the state of South Africa today |
-of course you can't, and neither can most westerners.
Thats because the west was never actually interested in the country or the welfare of the people of south africa.
It was interested in a fairy tale story that they could tie up with a pretty ribbon when the pauper was released and became the king.
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| but apartheid was wrong. He stood up against it and won. |
There's your neat little fairy tale again.
The fact is that demolishing apartheid served as a cathharthis for westerners whereby they could for the first time demonise other white people for racism while self-righteously posing as morally upstanding.
I'm guessing you're north american. You occupy land stolen from its native inhabitants, your history of colonization and genocide is far far worse than anything that happened in south africa. Do native americans have equal status in the US today?
The same goes for all those australians and new zealanders. In fact the average australian redneck tends to be even more racist against aborigines than I ever saw in south africans. Yet you all got a moralizing kick out of helping demolish white south africa. Even the english. And they conveniently forget that they were the nation who sent their people to south africa to colonize it in the first place. South africa used to be a british colony.
Tell me kuros if one day you hear of black south africans suffering poverty and violence under corrupt black government, will you be up in arms protesting on the streets against the injustice the same way you did against apartheid? |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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[political geek alert]
I remember the allegations about that book in the 80s, spread by apartheid apologists in the western media. According to one of his comrades, How To Be A Good Communist was a Chinese book, translated into English, passages from which Mandela transcribed into his notebooks. The prosecution presented these notes at his trial, and tried to make them sound like a manuscript Mandela himself had composed.
When asked why Mandela transcribed the book, the comrade replied "Well, he transcribed lots of things he read, the Bible, etc".
Having said that, from everything I've heard, Mandela was close enough to the SACP to make any defense of him on charges of Communist-affiliation a bit of a hair-split. Now, having said THAT, it's also true, as Kuros notes, that his economic program upon attaining power was far from radical(he even privatized a few prisons, though I think that trend has been halted). And I haven't heard anything that would lead me to think that political freedom in South Africa today is akin to what you have in North Korea or Cuba.
And, something that you almost never hear about is that the ANC was also on pretty friendly terms with some pro-western, right-wing dictators...
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Two of the ANC’s biggest donors, in the 1990s, were Colonel Muammar Gaddafi of Libya and President Suharto of Indonesia . Not only did Mandela refrain from criticising their lamentable human rights records but he interceded diplomatically on their behalf, and awarded them South Africa ‘s highest honour. Suharto was awarded a state visit, a 21-gun salute, and The Order of Good Hope (gold class).
In April 1999 Mandela acknowledged to an audience in Johannesburg that Suharto had given the ANC a total of 60 million dollars. An initial donation of 50 million dollars had been followed up by a further 10 million. The Telegraph ( London ) reported that Gaddafi was known to have given the ANC well over ten million dollars.
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Popocatepetl wrote: |
I'm guessing you're north american. You occupy land stolen from its native inhabitants, your history of colonization and genocide is far far worse than anything that happened in south africa. Do native americans have equal status in the US today? |
I'm guessing you're Junior. You want to blast modern North Americans but you would like moral immunity for Rhodesians and South Africans. You cannot have it both ways.
At least we now know who you are. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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When not wedded with atheism, Communism is morally superior to libertarian Capitalism - as evidenced by some of the racist crap generated in this thread.
In any case, Nelson Mandella may have been strategically aligned with Communists like Castro for some time to achieve his anti-apartheid mission, but he was magnanimous, pragmatic and reconciliatory as the first black President of South Africa.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/12/07/3802237/the-greatness-of-nelson-mandela.html
Moreover, he had become personally transformed while imprisoned - largely through study of Bhagavad-gita verses ...
http://www.dandavats.com/?p=12130 |
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Popocatepetl
Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Location: Winter in Korea: One Perfect day after another
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| Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Popocatepetl wrote: |
I'm guessing you're north american. You occupy land stolen from its native inhabitants, your history of colonization and genocide is far far worse than anything that happened in south africa. Do native americans have equal status in the US today? |
I'm guessing you're Junior. You want to blast modern North Americans but you would like moral immunity for Rhodesians and South Africans. You cannot have it both ways.
At least we now know who you are. |
Why can't you answer the questions I put to you?
I don't want "moral immunity", YOU do.
I freely admit that apartheid was wrong. I never said it wasn't.
What I want you to admit is that the US has a shockingly worse history of racism and genocide than SA.
For that matter so does australia and other former colonies.
Drop your pretensions to any moral high ground.
Whites in South africa did not annihilate the native people nor did they keep blacks as slaves like you americans did.
Stop avoiding answering the questions, slave owner. |
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Popocatepetl
Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Location: Winter in Korea: One Perfect day after another
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| Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Having said that, from everything I've heard, Mandela was close enough to the SACP to make any defense of him on charges of Communist-affiliation a bit of a hair-split. Now, having said THAT, it's also true, as Kuros notes, that his economic program upon attaining power was far from radical(he even privatized a few prisons, though I think that trend has been halted). And I haven't heard anything that would lead me to think that political freedom in South Africa today is akin to what you have in North Korea or Cuba. |
By and large the claims of communism were fear-mongering by whites who sought to harness domestic and western support.
African nationalist leaders conveniently made vague commitments to communism in exchange for desperately needed weapons and training.
They mostly forgot these allegiances once they took power however.
Their subsequent styles of government owe more to their own traditional structures and emulations of colonial governments than anything in some red manifesto.
| Titus wrote: |
| He was a communist terrorist. |
Ignoring the hysterical hero-worship created by the media, all we can really say about him is that he was recognisably human- ie a mixture of good and bad. Yes his armed struggle resulted in the deaths of innocents but once in power he had an overwhelmingly constructive and positive influence. Thats putting aside his friendship with suharto and gaddafi and deafening silence on mugabe of course. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Popocatepetl wrote: |
I freely admit that apartheid was wrong. I never said it wasn't.
What I want you to admit is that the US has a shockingly worse history of racism and genocide than SA.
For that matter so does australia and other former colonies.
Drop your pretensions to any moral high ground.
Whites in South africa did not annihilate the native people nor did they keep blacks as slaves like you americans did.
Stop avoiding answering the questions, slave owner. |
I'm pretty ignorant about SA history, but what does it say that you are calling me a slave owner in this thread?
Anyway, we agree, apartheid is bad. I am glad we could come to this conclusion without arguing about irrelevancies and without resorting to personal attacks.  |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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Here's just one statement on Mandela from an amateur historian.
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Some conservatives say, ah, but [Nelson Mandela] was a communist.
Actually Mandela was raised in a Methodist school, was a devout Christian, turned to communism in desperation only after South Africa was taken over by an extraordinarily racist government determined to eliminate all rights for blacks.
I would ask of his critics: where were some of these conservatives as allies against tyranny? Where were the masses of conservatives opposing Apartheid? In a desperate struggle against an overpowering government, you accept the allies you have just as Washington was grateful for a French monarchy helping him defeat the British.
Finally, if you had been imprisoned for 27 years, 18 of them in a cell eight foot by seven foot, how do you think you would have emerged? Would you have been angry? Would you have been bitter?
Nelson Mandela emerged from 27 years in prison as an astonishingly wise, patient, and compassionate person.
He called for reconciliation among the races. He invited his prison guard to sit in the front row at his inauguration as President. In effect he said to the entire country, “If I can forgive the man who imprisoned me, surely you can forgive your neighbors.”
Far from behaving like a communist, President Mandela reassured businesses that they could invest in South Africa and grow in South Africa. He had learned that jobs come from job creators.
. . .
Before you criticize him, ask yourself, what would you have done in his circumstances? |
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RangerMcGreggor
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
| SA is looking like a failing state. The has everything to do with the quality of his successors and the failures of the ANC to support competent leadership. |
And the past policies of the Apartheid government as well. People seem to forget that the South African government was pretty much a ticking time bomb economically because the previous government ran up an insane amount of public debt that Nelson Mandela took over. Throw in the fact that the decades of Apartheid would leave major major social issues in the past, I find it amazing how people can essentially give pretend that it is all the fault of those dirty black people |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| RangerMcGreggor wrote: |
| stilicho25 wrote: |
| SA is looking like a failing state. The has everything to do with the quality of his successors and the failures of the ANC to support competent leadership. |
And the past policies of the Apartheid government as well. People seem to forget that the South African government was pretty much a ticking time bomb economically because the previous government ran up an insane amount of public debt that Nelson Mandela took over. Throw in the fact that the decades of Apartheid would leave major major social issues in the past, I find it amazing how people can essentially give pretend that it is all the fault of those dirty black people |
You can add to that that 90% of the public was denied--on the basis of skin color alone--access to the best education the country had to offer. That ended less than a quarter century ago. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| Puleeze. That dog don't hunt. Look at the rise of China, eastern Europe and many other places in the last 30 years. Heck, Vietnam got bombed off the map 3 times this century and it is still recovering. It has everything to do with thabo mbeki and jacob zuma. Zuma in particular is a corrupt fool. |
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Popocatepetl
Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Location: Winter in Korea: One Perfect day after another
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| RangerMcGreggor wrote: |
| stilicho25 wrote: |
| SA is looking like a failing state. The has everything to do with the quality of his successors and the failures of the ANC to support competent leadership. |
And the past policies of the Apartheid government as well. People seem to forget that the South African government was pretty much a ticking time bomb economically because the previous government ran up an insane amount of public debt that Nelson Mandela took over. Throw in the fact that the decades of Apartheid would leave major major social issues in the past, I find it amazing how people can essentially give pretend that it is all the fault of those dirty black people |
Apartheid was wrong, but white government was hardly detrimental.
Sure maybe the previous govt ran up debt but so has every government of every advanced nation- including the US- because it is part and parcel of the 20th century economic growth model. Which is in any case a failing and unsustainable model. We live in debt-based economies.
I absolutely detest racial and class privelege. I dislike the idea of white domination as much as black domination. These and similar vices are strong in just about every country on earth though- they just don't enshrine them into their constitutions.
Hopefully SA will preserve their democracy and not become victim to corrupt and abusive leaders as has happened elsewhere on the continent. Can Africa do it? Absolutely, but realistically it will take longer than it has in Asia and Europe due to cultural factors. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
| It has everything to do with thabo mbeki and jacob zuma. Zuma in particular is a corrupt fool. |
You are giving far too much credit to only two men, it seems to me. Apartheid was a deeply twisted system that corrupted the whole society that will take generations to heal. Mandela was remarkable because he not only resisted the system politically, he resisted the effects of the system on a personal level. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Apartheid was a deeply twisted system that corrupted the whole society that will take generations to heal. |
In other words, if South Africa is still a violent, corrupt, and increasingly impoverished place in another 20 years time, it won't be the responsibility of the blacks in power, but the apartheid system put in place by the evil white man. That excuse will always be there. |
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