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Singularity
Joined: 28 Oct 2012
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 Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| unless Japan makes German like efforts |
How much money did the Germans give to the Poles, Czeches, Ukranians, Gypsies, ect.... |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| cabeza wrote: |
How?
Explain to me how the Korean economy would have developed? The money had to come from somewhere.
Weather or not Japan truly felt remorse is another issue. It's seperate.
You are a perfect example of the typical Korean mindset on this whole thing. You cannot accept that Japan has in any way aided Korea. The bitterness pours out of you. |
Well we are failing to differentiate between Japanese investment independent of any Occupation-related matters and Japanese restitution payments.
I don't think you understand the idea behind restitution and compensation. Those payments are not "aid". They are not positive accounts or "free money". They are in fact payments for resources "borrowed" and damages inflicted.
If I run over you with my car and put you in the hospital for two years and you use the settlement money to go to college, that doesn't mean I aided you and donated money for your college degree. That means I messed you up and you used that money that you got for your pain and suffering however you saw fit. The money you get is to replace lost money and lost ability. It is not me "investing" in you. To say you couldn't have gone to college without me because you wouldn't have had the money is ridiculous. I deprived you of two years of your life.
All I'm saying is the claim that "without the Japanese there would be no Miracle on the Han" is a claim that seems like an awfully narrow event applied to a situation that arose from an incredibly broad array of factors.
Whose to say that the Park administration wouldn't have turned to a European or American investor or government for POSCO?
You're making a mistake in reasoning- Just because POSCO was kickstarted with Japanese money doesn't mean it ONLY could have been done so. Given that independent steel concerns were of significant interest to Park, it seems reasonable to conclude that Korea would have found SOME investor. For whatever reason he chose the Japanese deal, and the Japanese were likely prodded into doing so by the Americans.
Japan certainly assisted. But it was not the reason for.
I don't think there is any bitterness at all here. I think you have just not stated the full facts and drawn faulty conclusions for the reasons I outlayed above. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Singularity wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| unless Japan makes German like efforts |
How much money did the Germans give to the Poles, Czeches, Ukranians, Gypsies, ect.... |
German compensated Israel. And they don't gloss over what they did during the war in their schools. Germans are almost as ashamed of being German because of what they are taught. Often Japanese students have absolutely no idea what their country did until they tour the sites in Korea and China. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Singularity wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Singularity wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
As far as I'm concerned, unless Japan makes German like efforts to make up for their wartime atrocities, I have no problems seeing Korea, or China, or whatever country, demanding Japan do more to makeup for it. |
Could you not make the argumet that the "Miricle of the Han" would not have occured if the Japanese had not paid reperations to the South Korean government in 1965? |
It helped, but that was happening regardless. |
This.... and Park was a smart man. They were doing fine with US aid. Anyways, he did whatever he could to help finance Korea's industrialization. He knew Japan was in little position to refuse 'aiding' Korea. |
You my friend have an interesting understanding of history  |
Well, it's better taking the money than not taking it at all (because of useless pride), especially way back in 1960's-Korea. |
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cabeza
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Well we are failing to differentiate between Japanese investment independent of any Occupation-related matters and Japanese restitution payments.
I don't think you understand the idea behind restitution and compensation. Those payments are not "aid". They are not positive accounts or "free money". They are in fact payments for resources "borrowed" and damages inflicted. |
You are a condescending twit.
| Quote: |
I don't think you understand the idea behind restitution and compensation. Those payments are not "aid". They are not positive accounts or "free money". They are in fact payments for resources "borrowed" and damages inflicted.
If I run over you with my car and put you in the hospital for two years and you use the settlement money to go to college, that doesn't mean I aided you and donated money for your college degree. That means I messed you up and you used that money that you got for your pain and suffering however you saw fit. The money you get is to replace lost money and lost ability. It is not me "investing" in you. To say you couldn't have gone to college without me because you wouldn't have had the money is ridiculous. I deprived you of two years of your life. |
You are a condescending twit.
| Quote: |
| All I'm saying is the claim that "without the Japanese there would be no Miracle on the Han" is a claim that seems like an awfully narrow event applied to a situation that arose from an incredibly broad array of factors. |
I never once said that. My point was that most Koreans refuse to give any credit to Japan.
And by the way it wasn't just reparations. There was a series of soft loans as well.
| Quote: |
You're making a mistake in reasoning- Just because POSCO was kickstarted with Japanese money doesn't mean it ONLY could have been done so. Given that independent steel concerns were of significant interest to Park, it seems reasonable to conclude that Korea would have found SOME investor. For whatever reason he chose the Japanese deal, and the Japanese were likely prodded into doing so by the Americans. |
Am I making that mistake? Well thanks for pointing it out.
You are making the mistake of creating new arguments about the meaning and purpose of reparations and then refuting those arguments. None of which I made. Please don't make that mistake again.
Here is my point spelt out for you.
Koreans, in large part, cannot accept the fact that it was Japanese money that played a big part in the start of their economic "miracle". It creates a cognitive dissonance which comes out sideways in issues like the naming of the Sea of Japan and Dokdo and your bitter little man syndrome.
Could the development have happened without Japan through some other investor? Absolutely.
Are the Japanese solely responsible for the economic growth of Korea during Park's dictatorship? No.
Was some of the money paid in the form of war and colonial reparations? Yes, indeed.
Are you a condescending dork? It seems so. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| Germans are almost as ashamed of being German because of what they are taught. |
Which is a ridiculously unhealthy state of affairs that should not be wished upon anyone. Japan has handled the matter far more sensibly than Germany. It's a good thing if the Japanese people are not made to dwell upon such matters. Cultures of guilt are perverse. Tossing people in jail for expressing an eroneous historic opinion is perverse.
That said, on the economic side of things, Germany had a substantial amount of reperation debts forgiven, which means they haven't even paid out their strict obligations, much less been generous. Germany never made full reparations to Greece, for example, but instead of talking about how they can make those payments, they're cracking down on Greece's debt! These are the "German-like efforts" Japan should emulate? |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| Germans are almost as ashamed of being German because of what they are taught. |
Which is a ridiculously unhealthy state of affairs that should not be wished upon anyone. Japan has handled the matter far more sensibly than Germany. It's a good thing if the Japanese people are not made to dwell upon such matters. Cultures of guilt are perverse. Tossing people in jail for expressing an eroneous historic opinion is perverse.
That said, on the economic side of things, Germany had a substantial amount of reperation debts forgiven, which means they haven't even paid out their strict obligations, much less been generous. Germany never made full reparations to Greece, for example, but instead of talking about how they can make those payments, they're cracking down on Greece's debt! These are the "German-like efforts" Japan should emulate? |
They've got to at least educate students what they did during the war that makes many of their Asian neighbors so hostile to them. Instead of just ignoring all of it. They don't have to go as far as banning the Rising Sun flag domestically, but inform people that it may not be welcome in other countries and why. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Koreans, in large part, cannot accept the fact that it was Japanese money that played a big part in the start of their economic "miracle". It creates a cognitive dissonance which comes out sideways in issues like the naming of the Sea of Japan and Dokdo and your bitter little man syndrome. |
So if someone goes to college with money they receive after getting an injury settlement, and don't credit the person who ran them over with their car for their graduation, they are engaged in cognitive dissonance?
I think that is a perfectly reasonable thing for someone to believe and think.
I also think that some people may feel that if you take the balance of the benefits of Japan in conjunction with the negatives, that the account reads Korea achieving in spite of Japan, rather than because of.
Now there are some Koreans who are rather sympathetic towards the Japanese occupation, believe it or not. Just as in any country there will always be a segment of the population that benefited from occupation forces or a domestic strongman government.
Oh and if you need to call me bitter or a twit to make your argument, your argument probably sucks. |
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cabeza
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| Germans are almost as ashamed of being German because of what they are taught. |
Which is a ridiculously unhealthy state of affairs that should not be wished upon anyone. Japan has handled the matter far more sensibly than Germany. It's a good thing if the Japanese people are not made to dwell upon such matters. Cultures of guilt are perverse. Tossing people in jail for expressing an eroneous historic opinion is perverse.
That said, on the economic side of things, Germany had a substantial amount of reperation debts forgiven, which means they haven't even paid out their strict obligations, much less been generous. Germany never made full reparations to Greece, for example, but instead of talking about how they can make those payments, they're cracking down on Greece's debt! These are the "German-like efforts" Japan should emulate? |
They've got to at least educate students what they did during the war that makes many of their Asian neighbors so hostile to them. Instead of just ignoring all of it. They don't have to go as far as banning the Rising Sun flag domestically, but inform people that it may not be welcome in other countries and why. |
Agreed.
To be clear there is some education in regards to WW2 etc. It's just pretty piss poor.
Last edited by cabeza on Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| They've got to at least educate students what they did during the war that makes many of their Asian neighbors so hostile to them. |
No they don't. Those students aren't at fault, and they shouldn't be saddled with the neurotic burden of cultural guilt. Neither should young German kids over World War II. Neither should young Americans over slavery. Neither should young Canadians over historic First Nations inequities. If Koreans or other Asian nations want to dwell over these problems, then that's their problem.
I'm of Jewish descent, and I'm telling you I don't want Germans feeling bad about World War II. If I can man up, so can East Asians. |
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cabeza
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Koreans, in large part, cannot accept the fact that it was Japanese money that played a big part in the start of their economic "miracle". It creates a cognitive dissonance which comes out sideways in issues like the naming of the Sea of Japan and Dokdo and your bitter little man syndrome. |
So if someone goes to college with money they receive after getting an injury settlement, and don't credit the person who ran them over with their car for their graduation, they are engaged in cognitive dissonance?
I think that is a perfectly reasonable thing for someone to believe and think.
I also think that some people may feel that if you take the balance of the benefits of Japan in conjunction with the negatives, that the account reads Korea achieving in spite of Japan, rather than because of.
Now there are some Koreans who are rather sympathetic towards the Japanese occupation, believe it or not. Just as in any country there will always be a segment of the population that benefited from occupation forces or a domestic strongman government.
Oh and if you need to call me bitter or a twit to make your argument, your argument probably sucks. |
If the person who ran me over came back 20 years later I'd be quite pissed off. But if he offered to put me through university and other things then I wouldn't ignore it.
Of course the analogy, like most of your analogies, is stupid. Dealing with an individual and the psychological process there is not really comparable to the national psyche of tens of millions of people, mixed in with a fractured history etc.
I understand why Korea gets annoyed at Japan. I lived in Japan for 2 and a half years and sometimes their attitude about the war pissed me off too. But the ridiculousness which i've experienced in Korea (Uni kids shouting "monkey" if the name Japan is mentioned. 6 year olds saying they hate Japanese) is something else.
The cognitive dissonance is the thing that makes Koreans angry when you say that Kimbap and Don Katsu were introduced by the Japanese. They will/can not accept any positive impact from Japan. So the hate grows.
You bitter little twit. |
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Singularity
Joined: 28 Oct 2012
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
They've got to at least educate students what they did during the war that makes many of their Asian neighbors so hostile to them. Instead of just ignoring all of it. They don't have to go as far as banning the Rising Sun flag domestically, but inform people that it may not be welcome in other countries and why. |
I don't think the Japanese people are completely ignorant to heir "grand parents" actions over 60 years ago.
However, if Koreans are going to call for the Japanese to fully look at their past actions then I think the Koreans must first do the same.
Here's the elephant in the room when it comes to the Japanese occupation of Korea:
It wouldn't have been possible without massive Korean support.
I'm not discounting the resistance movement, although this was in the scheme of things it was quite minimal and primarily limited to the mountains in the far north of the country and Manchuria.
The Japanese occupation was so successful because so many Koreans went along with it. Especially the elites.
It's no secret that many of the political and economic leaders in South Korea following the Korean War had deep ties to the Japanese.
All of this Korean Chaebols have long been in bed with the Japanese.
The beloved Park Jung-hee was a member of the Japanese air force for Christ sake. |
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Singularity
Joined: 28 Oct 2012
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
They've got to at least educate students what they did during the war that makes many of their Asian neighbors so hostile to them. |
Why to we have to punish the grandchildren for their grandparents actions?
It's not like the Japanese people didn't suffer enough towards the end of the war.
The Japanese got their azz handed to them severely. Their urban areas endured a massive firebomb campaign and two of their cities were wiped out my nukes.
I think that's punishment enough. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| They've got to at least educate students what they did during the war that makes many of their Asian neighbors so hostile to them. |
No they don't. Those students aren't at fault, and they shouldn't be saddled with the neurotic burden of cultural guilt. Neither should young German kids over World War II. Neither should young Americans over slavery. Neither should young Canadians over historic First Nations inequities. If Koreans or other Asian nations want to dwell over these problems, then that's their problem.
I'm of Jewish descent, and I'm telling you I don't want Germans feeling bad about World War II. If I can man up, so can East Asians. |
You do know educating and feelings are two different things? They need to be presented the material, and it's the learner that decides how to feel. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| They've got to at least educate students what they did during the war that makes many of their Asian neighbors so hostile to them. |
No they don't. Those students aren't at fault, and they shouldn't be saddled with the neurotic burden of cultural guilt. Neither should young German kids over World War II. Neither should young Americans over slavery. Neither should young Canadians over historic First Nations inequities. If Koreans or other Asian nations want to dwell over these problems, then that's their problem.
I'm of Jewish descent, and I'm telling you I don't want Germans feeling bad about World War II. If I can man up, so can East Asians. |
You do know educating and feelings are two different things? They need to be presented the material, and it's the learner that decides how to feel. |
Alright, let me revise my response slightly: obviously the basic details of World War II (the basic details of history for that matter) should be taught. They should be taught in a basic, impersonal fashion though: students should be taught what happened, but not from the perspective of "we did this and that." In short, history is good, but German-style guilt history is not. |
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