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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| I was just never as bothered by apartheid as some other people. Was it an indefensible system? Of course it was. But show me a country, anywhere in Africa, that served as a shining beacon of democracy and human rights? I can’t think of one. |
Botswana. I believe they have been a multi-party democracy, with general respect for human rights, since independence.
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The Constitution of Botswana is the rule of law which protects the citizens of Botswana and represents their rights to freedom, life, and liberty. The politics of Botswana take place in a framework of a representative democratic republic, whereby the President of Botswana is both head of state and head of government, and of a multi-party system. Executive power is exercised by the government. Legislative power is vested in both the government and the Parliament of Botswana. The most recent election, its tenth, was held on 16 October 2009.
Since independence was declared, the party system has been dominated by the Botswana Democratic Party. The judiciary is independent of the executive and the legislature. According to Transparency International, Botswana is the least corrupt country in Africa and ranks similarly close to Portugal and South Korea.[14]
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Titus wrote: |
| Popocatepetl wrote: |
| Thats a good point. For some reason western sensibilities are twinged by colour difference but not degree of atrocity. |
Yes. Note the different reactions to Russia's anti gay propaganda law and India criminalizing homosexuality full stop. |
Have you even managed to defend India's Supreme Court ruling yet?
Everybody is late to this party, it seems. |
| Titus wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
Have you even managed to defend India's Supreme Court ruling yet?
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What the fk do I care what a bunch of Indians do. |
Huh. I'm sorry you brought it up? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
| So when should black South Africans have been given the right to vote? |
The chirping of crickets is rather loud on this thread in regards to that question. |
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Popocatepetl
Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Location: Winter in Korea: One Perfect day after another
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| catman wrote: |
| So when should black South Africans have been given the right to vote? |
The chirping of crickets is rather loud on this thread in regards to that question. |
His comment was ignored because he missed the point.
Nobody was saying blacks should not have been given the vote.
We were saying that a whole lot of other regimes in Africa and elsewhere were worse and probably should've been higher on the podium of garnering the worlds condemnation.
While apartheid gripped south africa, its blacks were nonetheless on average the wealthiest on the continent.
During the time of apartheid (1948-1994) the world stood idly by and watched numerous far crueller regimes kill or oppress millions.
The same people that went bananas about apartheid did not lift a finger to stop Kim Il Sung in North korea, Pol Pot in Cambodia, Saddams genocide of the Kurds, Yaya Khans Pakistani genocide, Stalins gulags, Maos famine, not to mention the Rwandan genocide.
Because...if a regime oppresses its own people, then the west views it as "self-determination". |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| Popocatepetl wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| catman wrote: |
| So when should black South Africans have been given the right to vote? |
The chirping of crickets is rather loud on this thread in regards to that question. |
His comment was ignored because he missed the point.
Nobody was saying blacks should not have been given the vote.
We were saying that a whole lot of other regimes in Africa and elsewhere were worse and probably should've been higher on the podium of garnering the worlds condemnation.
While apartheid gripped south africa, its blacks were nonetheless on average the wealthiest on the continent.
During the time of apartheid (1948-1994) the world stood idly by and watched numerous far crueller regimes kill or oppress millions.
The same people that went bananas about apartheid did not lift a finger to stop Kim Il Sung in North korea, Pol Pot in Cambodia, Saddams genocide of the Kurds, Yaya Khans Pakistani genocide, Stalins gulags, Maos famine, not to mention the Rwandan genocide.
Because...if a regime oppresses its own people, then the west views it as "self-determination". |
North Korea- Sanctions, designation as a state sponsor of terrorism, frozen out of the international system
Khmer Rouge- ECCC Cambodia tribunal for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide
Iraq- No Fly Zone over Kurdish territory, sanctions
Stalin's Gulags- Probably impossible to do anything without starting WWIII, also not entirely sure that the full extent was known at the time, and am sure that there was a lot of public hate/condemnation towards the Soviets at the time
China under Mao- Same situation as Stalin
Rwanada- probably only legitimate case here, but that is mostly due to fall out from Somalia.
Maybe you can argue that the press was weak on these, I wasn't alive for some of them so I don't know what the press coverage was like, but your basic argument is false and not nearly as clever as you think it is. |
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Popocatepetl
Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Location: Winter in Korea: One Perfect day after another
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| North Korea- Sanctions, designation as a state sponsor of terrorism, frozen out of the international system |
C'mon. North Korea is the only country to routinely kill tens of thousands of its own people in concentration camps- an issue that has never garnered significant western attention. North korean athletes were never even banned from international participation in sports events like the south africans. Unwittingly or no, America has in fact propped up this evil regime with aid and supplied nuclear reactors.
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| Khmer Rouge- ECCC Cambodia tribunal for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide |
Pol Pot killed 2 million in 4 years and the west did nothing. Ok..so they established a tribunal 18 years after the event- which has only managed to convict one person.
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| Iraq- No Fly Zone over Kurdish territory, sanctions |
Saddam killed over 100,000 in 3 years. American prevaricated- e.g. Halabja- and helped their ally Saddam avoid censure.
Then there was Suharto, who killed 500,000 in 1965. Or Bokassa of the central african republic, who killed hundreds of schoolchildren and personally ate his political enemies. 250,000 died in the Algerian war of independence from France in the 1950's. And so on. Numerous other horrendous conflicts failed to twinge western sensibilities into action.
But dare a few whiteys make blacks surrender their seats on the bus, and the entire western world goes apoplectic with self-righteous indignation.
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| I don't know what the press coverage was like, but your basic argument is false |
Is it? Seems pretty obvious that the west has been highly selective in its media campaigns against injustice in the world.
You have to admit that in comparison to the aforementioned regimes, apartheid attracted a disproportionate response. For some reason it focussed western attention like nothing else. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| Popocatepetl wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| North Korea- Sanctions, designation as a state sponsor of terrorism, frozen out of the international system |
C'mon. North Korea is the only country to routinely kill tens of thousands of its own people in concentration camps- an issue that has never garnered significant western attention. North korean athletes were never even banned from international participation in sports events like the south africans. Unwittingly or no, America has in fact propped up this evil regime with aid and supplied nuclear reactors. |
Different circumstances result in narrower options. There has been plenty of coverage of the camps in the media, but it is understandable that it has been downplayed due to nuclear considerations. South Africa's nuclear program never provided the same level of threat, so the situation is different. [/quote]
| Popocatepetl wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Khmer Rouge- ECCC Cambodia tribunal for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide |
Pol Pot killed 2 million in 4 years and the west did nothing. Ok..so they established a tribunal 18 years after the event- which has only managed to convict one person. |
| Quote: |
| Iraq- No Fly Zone over Kurdish territory, sanctions |
Saddam killed over 100,000 in 3 years. American prevaricated- e.g. Halabja- and helped their ally Saddam avoid censure.
Then there was Suharto, who killed 500,000 in 1965. Or Bokassa of the central african republic, who killed hundreds of schoolchildren and personally ate his political enemies. 250,000 died in the Algerian war of independence from France in the 1950's. And so on. Numerous other horrendous conflicts failed to twinge western sensibilities into action.
But dare a few whiteys make blacks surrender their seats on the bus, and the entire western world goes apoplectic with self-righteous indignation.
| Quote: |
| I don't know what the press coverage was like, but your basic argument is false |
Is it? Seems pretty obvious that the west has been highly selective in its media campaigns against injustice in the world.
You have to admit that in comparison to the aforementioned regimes, apartheid attracted a disproportionate response. For some reason it focussed western attention like nothing else. |
No, I don't have to. The famine in Somalia didn't involve white people, and it attracted a high degree of attention. Also, in some instances, such as North Korea, media is barely allowed into the country, so there are no pictures or video of the tragedies, which of course means less media attention. In other situations, like in China or the Soviet Union, it would have not been possible to react too strongly for fear of starting a war. Darfur got a lot of media attention, as well, I remember from a few years ago. Even if your premise was true, so what? All regimes get a pass if there is another regime worse than they are? |
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Popocatepetl
Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Location: Winter in Korea: One Perfect day after another
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
The famine in Somalia didn't involve white people, and it attracted a high degree of attention. |
Don't you mean ethiopia?
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| Also, in some instances, such as North Korea, media is barely allowed into the country, so there are no pictures or video of the tragedies, which of course means less media attention. |
Oh so if you're a friendly pro-western country that allows westerners in then you get puinished? Exactly my point earlier. Its a bit like Israel. A Jew has only to fart and you have a thousand idle western journos ready on hand to tell the world.
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| Darfur got a lot of media attention, as well, I remember from a few years ago. |
Darfur was an awful genocide. Apartheid did not even approach the threshold for that word. The two are in a different class.
Logically you would think there would be more outrage at Darfur.
But no. Did you see the same level of involvement as you did with apartheid? Did you see every western teenager wearing a "stop darfur " T-shirt, huge concerts to condemn Sudan? Global pop stars chanting "no more" to audiences of millions? The general public refusing to buy products from Sudan? Sports teams refusing to play Sudanese athletes? Barring them from the olympics? Condemnation of the sudanese regime in almost every media news programme and chat show? No1 hits on the charts condemning Sudan? Every school student doing homework projects on the issue? Protests on the streets or at their universities?
Because thats how it was with the anti-apartheid issue.
meanwhile tens of thousands of people die in concentration camps in north Korea - a known fact to the world- and nobody bats an eyelid.
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| Even if your premise was true, so what? All regimes get a pass if there is another regime worse than they are? |
Of course not. But stop for a moment and realize how illogical, uneven -and even hypocritical- western responses tend to be.
Part of it is a relict colonial power trip. UK lost its empire so seeks to maintain a sense of self importance by meddling in foreign countries issues that they don't fully appreciate. America responds to issues that reflect itself somehow. Being a country fraught with racial tensions and a history of slavery and taking native peoples land, anti-apartheid action functioned as a sort of proxy absolution in their national psyche. |
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RangerMcGreggor
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Botswana. I believe they have been a multi-party democracy, with general respect for human rights, since independence.
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Tanzania is also pretty nice despite having a billion tribes in their country. Kenya has had some hiccups but overall is also in decent shape. Plenty of no name countries like Burkina Faso have decent governments as well.
Yeah, there apparently is more to Africa than just the Congo and Sudan. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Popocatepetl wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
The famine in Somalia didn't involve white people, and it attracted a high degree of attention. |
Don't you mean ethiopia?
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| Also, in some instances, such as North Korea, media is barely allowed into the country, so there are no pictures or video of the tragedies, which of course means less media attention. |
Oh so if you're a friendly pro-western country that allows westerners in then you get puinished? Exactly my point earlier. Its a bit like Israel. A Jew has only to fart and you have a thousand idle western journos ready on hand to tell the world. |
Ah, so this is what this is all about.
| Leon wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Darfur got a lot of media attention, as well, I remember from a few years ago. |
Darfur was an awful genocide. Apartheid did not even approach the threshold for that word. The two are in a different class.
Logically you would think there would be more outrage at Darfur.
But no. Did you see the same level of involvement as you did with apartheid? Did you see every western teenager wearing a "stop darfur " T-shirt, huge concerts to condemn Sudan? Global pop stars chanting "no more" to audiences of millions? The general public refusing to buy products from Sudan? Sports teams refusing to play Sudanese athletes? Barring them from the olympics? Condemnation of the sudanese regime in almost every media news programme and chat show? No1 hits on the charts condemning Sudan? Every school student doing homework projects on the issue? Protests on the streets or at their universities?
Because thats how it was with the anti-apartheid issue.
meanwhile tens of thousands of people die in concentration camps in north Korea - a known fact to the world- and nobody bats an eyelid.
| Quote: |
| Even if your premise was true, so what? All regimes get a pass if there is another regime worse than they are? |
Of course not. But stop for a moment and realize how illogical and uneven western responses tend to be. |
Actually, if you look at what works, it's clear that the pressure worked in the case of South Africa. Would the pressure have worked in any of the other countries that you mentioned, no, not really. What good is condemning North Korea going to do? The Kim family doesn't care what others think of them, and they have a nuke. Look, if this is all a proxy for Israel like I suspect it is, just come out and say so |
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Popocatepetl
Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Location: Winter in Korea: One Perfect day after another
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Would the pressure have worked in any of the other countries that you mentioned, no, not really. |
Of course it would have worked to some extent. The fact that the western media did not even bother to cover much of these issues and that they did not even try to apply pressure once again illustrates my point.
Thats a convenient excuse for you now, but the fact is they didn't have a nuke for decades and you still did nothing.
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| Look, if this is all a proxy for Israel like I suspect it is, just come out and say so |
Don't be ridiculous.
You seem determined to avoid answering the points I raised or even acknowledging the inconsistencies. Hypocritical don't you think?
Lets see. You arrived in the US, killed the native people and stole their land, imported and kept black people as slaves- like animals- for centuries, and even today maintain white privelege- but suddenly you're the good guys and its other white people far away that are reincarnations of evil.
The fact that you cannot even self reflect but expect others to bow down into the ground in shame and penitence just shows your pathetic mentality.
Next! Please send someone intelligent |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Popocatepetl wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Would the pressure have worked in any of the other countries that you mentioned, no, not really. |
Of course it would have worked to some extent. The fact that the western media did not even bother to cover much of these issues and that they did not even try to apply pressure once again illustrates my point. |
Western media pressure would have worked against Stalin, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung, etc.??
| Popocatepetl wrote: |
Thats a convenient excuse for you now, but the fact is they didn't have a nuke for decades and you still did nothing. |
Nuke or conventional war with Seoul right there, one is more sensational to be sure, but the results would be more or less the same.
| Popocatepetl wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Look, if this is all a proxy for Israel like I suspect it is, just come out and say so |
Don't be ridiculous.
You seem determined to avoid answering the points I raised or even acknowledging the inconsistencies. Hypocritical don't you think?
Lets see. You arrived in the US, killed the native people and stole their land, imported and kept black people as slaves- like animals- for centuries, and even today maintain white privelege- but suddenly you're the good guys and its other white people far away that are reincarnations of evil.
The fact that you cannot even self reflect but expect others to bow down into the ground in shame and penitence just shows your pathetic mentality.
Next! Please send someone intelligent |
Ok, so its clear, just as suspected this is a waste of time. Again, your points are not half as clever as you think. Lets see, because of American history, America should not criticize any other country, but especially not Israel? |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| The whites in South Africa and "Rhodesia" should have worked things out with the blacks a long long time ago. If they would have these problems would not be around maybe. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| catman wrote: |
| So when should black South Africans have been given the right to vote? |
The chirping of crickets is rather loud on this thread in regards to that question. |
As usual, you have very quickly lost the focus of the thread. |
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