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I was never overly bothered by Apartheid.
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Popocatepetl

Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Location: Winter in Korea: One Perfect day after another

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:57 pm Post subject:

Leon wrote:

Did you care, about any of this

You caimed to care about oppression or "repression" as you term it.

You also gave a speech about human rights.

The fact remains, that the west supported mobutu- an unparralelled dictator- as he tortured thousands of people and denied them the vote.

At roughly the same time they tried to overturn the only functioning country-with the highest standard of living- on the continent because they couldn't stand the thought of white folks being served by black domestic staff.

Wow you guys really are at the forefront of the fight against oppression, you certainly have your priorities straight!

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:13 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Hate to burst your bubble, but freedom was not won by you personally, nor the imaginary heroism of armchair protesters in the west.

I never said it was. But I think the influence of private companies, the mass of consumers, and the media certainly contributed to its downfall. Undoubtedly it would have had some effect on South African white domestic opinion as well. The incontrovertible fact was that they were alone in the Anglosphere and Western Europe in having such a system and were rapidly turning into a pariah. With the decline of the Cold War, I think they knew the game was up.

Quote:

It is doubtful that your convenient refusal to play the springboks (they were far superior to your teams)

I don't even know what this sentence means. Why would anyone in the United States give a crap about rugby?

I don't think you're quite giving enough credit to the march of time and the fact that you were within the Anglosphere had on the willingness of Anglo peoples to confront the Apartheid regime and to call for it to be treated as a pariah. Only the Cold War kept it in check. Get the Russian bugaboo out of the way and its pretty clear where at least some significant attention would have likely turned...

Quote:

It was given them by the whites - who overwhelmingly voted for reforms in the 1992 referendum. It was partly thanks to them that democracy was born.

And it was wholly thanks to them that for Black South Africans, it was taken away for all the time prior.

I passionately care about it the whole thing one way or the other. It was South Africa's business and ultimately an internal political matter. But I am trying to convey that their conduct was 'unfortunate' at best and that there were legitimate reasons for why they received more attention than other countries (population and power should be one- go for the head), and that perhaps you might have a different moral view on this were you a black South African.

Yes, people are hypocrites. I'm not sure that's where it should begin and end though.

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:18 am Post subject:

Popocatepetl wrote:

Leon wrote:

Did you care, about any of this

You're a one trick kind of guy, I can see. Please show me where I claim to care about oppression, or repression. Not to say I don't, but its amusing because you are arguing with a stock character. I haven't been talking about human rights on this thread, this entire time my claim has been simple, your premise is wrong. You are a hypocrite, you don't care about any of this except as a tool to make others look bad and to make excuses for other regimes. Sure, the media ignoring other tragedies is a legitimate problem, but exploiting other tragedies in the almost gleeful manner you are doing is twisted. I have asked you several times if you actually cared about any of this, and you have doubled down on more of the same, I'm done.

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:40 pm Post subject:

Popocatepetl wrote:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

Four people are thrashing around in a raging river and you are on the bank with one rope. What do you do?

Its not just that you chose to help only one. Its that you didn't even care about the rest.

Did western media even highlight oppression in North Korea? Did they even seek to ban north korean athletes from participation? The same goes for a host of other oppressive regimes and genocides. No, the west did not care, at all.

Thousands macheted in Rwanda? hmm..change the channel. Tens of thousands gassed in Iraq? Back to the nintendo.

White folks with swimming pools and mercedes benz being served tea by black domestic staff? Arrrrgggggghhhh!

It was only the sight of other white people having a better standard of living than them that finally spurred westerners into a mad frenzy.

Quote:

People are saying oppression is oppression, no matter the particular cause. If the West didn't oppose all oppression, then it shouldn't have singled out apartheid for dealing with.

Its not oppression you are against.

You ignored mass genocides all over Africa but decided to demolish the most successful country on the continent?

You turned on a pro-western ally and supported terrorists trying to install a communist regime.

All so as to mend your fragile psyche and blot out the guilt of your own (far worse) racist past?

Or was it just a convenient way to reduce a strong economic competitor to being a vassal host for your multinational companies.

You're just being silly. And tiresome. I think I'll go walk my dog.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:01 pm Post subject:

THE UNITED STATES DID RACIST THINGS ONCE SO SHUT UP ABOUT APARTHEID SOUTH AFRICA Thread over.

Popocatepetl

Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Location: Winter in Korea: One Perfect day after another

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:05 pm Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

THE UNITED STATES DID RACIST THINGS ONCE SO SHUT UP ABOUT APARTHEID SOUTH AFRICA

Or rather, "the US approved of black regimes oppressing black people but objected to whites oppressing black people".

Mobutu says thankyou.

Steelrails wrote:

Yes, people are hypocrites.

Leon wrote:

I'm done.

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

I think I'll go walk my dog.

Thanks for playing, gentlemen. Your tacit admissions of defeat are appreciated.

Last edited by Popocatepetl on Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:13 pm Post subject:

Popocatepetl wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

Yes, people are hypocrites.

I assume you're referring to western foreign policy makers?

Yep.

Their rule is "if black regimes oppress their people or black tribes kill other black tribes en masse, we will support them in their endeavours.

But if whites so much as dare to imprison black criminals, we will bring down the full fury of the world upon them".

Leon wrote:

I'm done.

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

I think I'll go walk my dog.

Thanks for playing, gentlemen. Your tacit admissions of defeat are appreciated.

A hypocrite and someone who takes things out of context. Go figure. Its not defeat as much as dismissing you as one would a child who tried to sit at the adult table.

Popocatepetl

Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Location: Winter in Korea: One Perfect day after another

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:24 pm Post subject:

Leon wrote:

A hypocrite and someone who takes things out of context. Go figure. Its not defeat as much as dismissing you as one would a child who tried to sit at the adult table.

Ahh....By "out of context" you mean the fact that you supported Mobutu Sese Seko for decades, to the tune of billions of dollars, as he rampaged through the congo killing and torturing his people?

Oh..that was 'different"? I see.

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:29 pm Post subject:

Popocatepetl wrote:

Leon wrote:

A hypocrite and someone who takes things out of context. Go figure. Its not defeat as much as dismissing you as one would a child who tried to sit at the adult table.

Funny, I don't remember having billions of dollars, or that being the context in question. The grown ups are eating, go and play.

Popocatepetl

Joined: 14 Oct 2013
Location: Winter in Korea: One Perfect day after another

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:37 pm Post subject:

Leon wrote:

Funny, I don't remember

Happy to keep reminding you.

Quote:

America's Ally Mobutu Thrives On Corruption As His Nation Crumbles

By Tim Weiner, Inquirer Washington Bureau
Posted: October 30, 1991

WASHINGTON — Twelve days ago, as his starving nation slipped into anarchy, President Mobutu Sese Seko of Zaire ordered thousands of tulips flown in from Amsterdam to decorate his yacht. The flowers cost $100,000.

As the flowers arrived, Zaire's cities were burning. Its economy was in ruins. Unpaid soldiers and hungry civilians looted homes and stores.

As Zaire burned, Mobutu - America's closest ally in black Africa and Zaire's absolute ruler since 1965 - floated on his pleasure craft in the Congo River 18 miles from the capital city of Kinshasa, maneuvering for power. Last week, to maintain his dictatorship, he fired a newly minted coalition government, sparking riots in which hundreds have died.

Mobutu has jailed, tortured and killed thousands of his political opponents over the years, according to Amnesty International. But what makes him unique among the world's living tyrants is his unparalleled thievery.

"Some dictators leave things behind. Not Mobutu. He has robbed Zaire of all its hope and happiness," said a former prime minister of Zaire long loyal to Mobutu. "He has never seen the difference between his personal cash box and the state's. He is a man who sees nothing and steals everything."

By ransacking Zaire's rich reserves of diamonds, cobalt and copper, Mobutu has bankrupted his nation and enriched himself beyond imagining, U.S. officials say. By most accounts, he has stolen billions.

But every U.S. administration since Eisenhower's has trusted Mobutu to support U.S. interests in Africa. The CIA helped Mobutu rise to power in the 1960s. American aid, overt and covert, has been crucial to his rule. President Bush praised him in 1989 as "one of our most valued friends" abroad.

The Department of State on Monday urged Mobutu to share power with his political opponents but stopped short of calling for him to step aside.

A prominent American businessman in Kinshasa, who related the story of the Dutch tulips, met throughout October with Mobutu's opponents. "Every one of them kept asking: When is the United States going to give him up?" the businessman said.

"The White House doesn't seem to realize that the American silence is devastating" to the opposition in Zaire, said William T. Close, Mobutu's personal physician and daily confidant from 1960 to 1976.

"The White House apparently still considers Mobutu a friend," said Close. ''How else can you explain the silence?"

In 1981, Nguza Karl-i-Bond, whom Mobutu had fired as Zaire's prime minister and sentenced to death, fled Zaire and came to Washington. He testified to Congress about Mobutu's corruption.

"The people are suffering. We have misery and starvation," he said. "The people know Mobutu is personally responsible for this. And our people know Mobutu was placed in power and remains in power today because of the continued support of the United States.

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