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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
More ignorance I see. You obviously misunderstand what creativity is. Why? Because obviously creativity can be, has been, is being and will be applied to providing necessities.
Check out Tom Ritchey's bike building efforts in regards to Rwandan coffee farmers and how his creativity is helping them earn a better living and provide their families with necessities.
I just came back from the post office. There, a lack of creativity to how to best serve their customers resulted in a long and unnecessary wait. Time is a necessity.
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All fine and good, but it doesn't change the fact that most people aren't too creative and gearing an education system around creativity might not be to their benefit or the benefit of society as a whole. The goal is the education of each individual, not bowing down at some idol of creativity.
Also, in order for creativity to prosper, you need a certain element of prosperity. Often in order to gain prosperity, you must focus on productivity and to put it simply, offering cheap imitation goods rather than cutting edge new products. It also helps in that situation for everyone to get in line and get to work, rather than arguing to the point where you get things shutting down constantly.
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One more thing, posts which either state or imply that education should be more "practical," in other words more vocationally oriented, strike me as hypocritical since they are coming from people who mostly sit in offices and who have obviously done what they could to avoid the type of work carpenters, plumbers, welders, cooks, etc. do. Yet here they are telling others they should settle for less.
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First, many people in business or other office positions are not overly creative. What they are is highly disciplined, attentive to detail, focused, driven, assertive, and emphasize execution. You don't have to be creative, you just have to know how to motivate and utilize someone who is.
Second, as someone already mentioned, some of those positions can earn quite a bit more than our cozy English teaching job. Also, people are in their respective fields often because they have an aptitude for it. I'd love to make 200,000 a year doing welding. Unfortunately I have zero qualifications and most importantly, zero aptitude for the job. Likewise, I suspect many of the people in those fields have little interest in many of the white collar professions.
Of course I could encourage everyone to go into the highly lucrative fields of music, art, or poetry. Fields with incredibly high success rates and standards of living for the average worker in the field vs. say, unionized laborers. 
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Even more hypocritical when you take into account that such posters aren't exactly world beaters in their chosen profession. Yet still they want to tell others how to live.
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No, this is about the proper focus of education so as to best educate the entire student body, not follow some ideology/theology of creativity to the detriment of the education of many.
It would appear to me, to be far easier for a creative person who was educated in a school system that emphasized skills/rote knowledge over creativity to still prosper than it would be for a person lacking in creativity, educated in a system that emphasized creativity over skills/knowledge, to prosper.
America's system is great for those who are creative and academically inclined. It is likely superior to Korea's and many other countries. Unfortunately, it comes with significant costs to those who are not creatively and academically inclined.
This isn't telling other people how to live. It is trying to offer the best possible service to the maximum number of people. The creativity of the few is not worth the livelihood of the many. Their lives and education are just as important as those of the academic and creative. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| This is a teaching forum, and most of us are familiar with the lifestyle the more competitive Korean students lead. We are also probably aware of the disillusioned highschool students that see no point of even paying attention. As teachers if you respond nonchalantly to something like this you should probably consider another profession. Call me self righteous if you want, but given the hurdles I have seen highschool students go through to get into a SKY University allowing something like this to happen is just disgraceful. |
I don't know where you teach, but I assume it's probably in the Seoul area. Realize that close to 50% of the population lives outside of Seoul-Gyeonggi area. And mostly, high school students in the provinces are probably more realistic about their chances of getting into a SKY school. Only a handful are hoping to get into a SKY school, but most aim for regional colleges or one of the National universities. The students I've seen just aren't as 'stressed' as the media portrays. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| This is a teaching forum, and most of us are familiar with the lifestyle the more competitive Korean students lead. We are also probably aware of the disillusioned highschool students that see no point of even paying attention. As teachers if you respond nonchalantly to something like this you should probably consider another profession. Call me self righteous if you want, but given the hurdles I have seen highschool students go through to get into a SKY University allowing something like this to happen is just disgraceful. |
I don't know where you teach, but I assume it's probably in the Seoul area. Realize that close to 50% of the population lives outside of Seoul-Gyeonggi area. And mostly, high school students in the provinces are probably more realistic about their chances of getting into a SKY school. Only a handful are hoping to get into a SKY school, but most aim for regional colleges or one of the National universities. The students I've seen just aren't as 'stressed' as the media portrays. |
Yup, sounds very much like the Seoul/Rest-Of-Korea divide. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| This is a teaching forum, and most of us are familiar with the lifestyle the more competitive Korean students lead. We are also probably aware of the disillusioned highschool students that see no point of even paying attention. As teachers if you respond nonchalantly to something like this you should probably consider another profession. Call me self righteous if you want, but given the hurdles I have seen highschool students go through to get into a SKY University allowing something like this to happen is just disgraceful. |
I don't know where you teach, but I assume it's probably in the Seoul area. Realize that close to 50% of the population lives outside of Seoul-Gyeonggi area. And mostly, high school students in the provinces are probably more realistic about their chances of getting into a SKY school. Only a handful are hoping to get into a SKY school, but most aim for regional colleges or one of the National universities. The students I've seen just aren't as 'stressed' as the media portrays. |
Yup, sounds very much like the Seoul/Rest-Of-Korea divide. |
Don't get me wrong, I do know that most want to go to Seoul and give it a try. Just like young people anywhere that want to go to their nation's big city. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
More ignorance I see. You obviously misunderstand what creativity is. Why? Because obviously creativity can be, has been, is being and will be applied to providing necessities.
Check out Tom Ritchey's bike building efforts in regards to Rwandan coffee farmers and how his creativity is helping them earn a better living and provide their families with necessities.
I just came back from the post office. There, a lack of creativity to how to best serve their customers resulted in a long and unnecessary wait. Time is a necessity.
|
All fine and good, but it doesn't change the fact that most people aren't too creative and gearing an education system around creativity might not be to their benefit or the benefit of society as a whole. The goal is the education of each individual, not bowing down at some idol of creativity.
Also, in order for creativity to prosper, you need a certain element of prosperity. Often in order to gain prosperity, you must focus on productivity and to put it simply, offering cheap imitation goods rather than cutting edge new products. It also helps in that situation for everyone to get in line and get to work, rather than arguing to the point where you get things shutting down constantly.
| Quote: |
One more thing, posts which either state or imply that education should be more "practical," in other words more vocationally oriented, strike me as hypocritical since they are coming from people who mostly sit in offices and who have obviously done what they could to avoid the type of work carpenters, plumbers, welders, cooks, etc. do. Yet here they are telling others they should settle for less.
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First, many people in business or other office positions are not overly creative. What they are is highly disciplined, attentive to detail, focused, driven, assertive, and emphasize execution. You don't have to be creative, you just have to know how to motivate and utilize someone who is.
Second, as someone already mentioned, some of those positions can earn quite a bit more than our cozy English teaching job. Also, people are in their respective fields often because they have an aptitude for it. I'd love to make 200,000 a year doing welding. Unfortunately I have zero qualifications and most importantly, zero aptitude for the job. Likewise, I suspect many of the people in those fields have little interest in many of the white collar professions.
Of course I could encourage everyone to go into the highly lucrative fields of music, art, or poetry. Fields with incredibly high success rates and standards of living for the average worker in the field vs. say, unionized laborers.
| Quote: |
Even more hypocritical when you take into account that such posters aren't exactly world beaters in their chosen profession. Yet still they want to tell others how to live.
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No, this is about the proper focus of education so as to best educate the entire student body, not follow some ideology/theology of creativity to the detriment of the education of many.
It would appear to me, to be far easier for a creative person who was educated in a school system that emphasized skills/rote knowledge over creativity to still prosper than it would be for a person lacking in creativity, educated in a system that emphasized creativity over skills/knowledge, to prosper.
America's system is great for those who are creative and academically inclined. It is likely superior to Korea's and many other countries. Unfortunately, it comes with significant costs to those who are not creatively and academically inclined.
This isn't telling other people how to live. It is trying to offer the best possible service to the maximum number of people. The creativity of the few is not worth the livelihood of the many. Their lives and education are just as important as those of the academic and creative. |
Read what I've bolded. How do you know that most people aren't "too creative"? Why do you assume that the majority of humanity lacks creativity and imagination?
Where do you come up with the idea that education is "geared around" making students creative? This is another gross misassumption that you have based your argument on and why normally I can't be bothered to answer you. You set up a false paradigm and then want to "discuss" it, which is of course nonsensical.
You don't need prosperity to be creative. That's another falsehood. "Necessity is the mother of invention."
You don;t have to be academically inclined to be creative. Tom Ritchey is a high school graduate.
You need to figure out what creativity is. Whatever you think it is, that is if you bother to think about what you post, which I sincerely doubt, it isn't.
As for your other assertions, they're so wrong that I have to ask where you get these ideas from? Cell phones have made Indian fishermen more profitable by providing them direct communication with fishmongers at different ports.
But I'll use a reference even you'll get. Henry Ford. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Read what I've bolded. How do you know that most people aren't "too creative"? Why do you assume that the majority of humanity lacks creativity and imagination? |
If this were so, the vast majority of humans would engage in creative enterprises, either as a profession or in their leisure. And even if some have creative impulses, how many also have the requisite skill to bring those ideas into fruition? And then how many have the financial resources to do so?
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You don't need prosperity to be creative. That's another falsehood. "Necessity is the mother of invention." |
It sure helps. You need a base of industry to enable such things. There's a reason most inventions are coming out of places with access to advanced technology and educational resources. How can you invent a smartphone if your country doesn't even have a domestic telecommunications company in it?
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You don;t have to be academically inclined to be creative. Tom Ritchey is a high school graduate.
You need to figure out what creativity is. Whatever you think it is, that is if you bother to think about what you post, which I sincerely doubt, it isn't.
As for your other assertions, they're so wrong that I have to ask where you get these ideas from? Cell phones have made Indian fishermen more profitable by providing them direct communication with fishmongers at different ports. |
And how would Korean education have inhibited someone like a Tom Ritchey or Henry Ford or an Indian fisherman? Do Koreans create nothing? Is that what is going on out there in the real world of Korea?
I'm not talking about feel-good stories. I'm talking about developing an academic curriculum and what to emphasize. I'm talking about the virtues of rote and practical education. I'm suggesting that creativity shouldn't be a goal, but a product of one's education.
You seem to be creating creativity as almost a religion. If people just have creativity, all is possible. That sounds nice. It isn't true. There isn't a 100% success rate with it. You have a limited amount of time and resources to spend on students who are each different individuals with individuals needs, aspirations, and abilities. Centering education around creativity to the detriment of skills is just as unyielding as centering it around rote and skills to the detriment of creativity. The only difference is that I would submit that far more people out there are more apt to engage in non-creative pursuits. They want to go out, do a job, make some money, and come home to their families and entertainment.
Creativity without skill and a base of knowledge and direction equals the hipster. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| Read what I've bolded. How do you know that most people aren't "too creative"? Why do you assume that the majority of humanity lacks creativity and imagination? |
If this were so, the vast majority of humans would engage in creative enterprises, either as a profession or in their leisure. And even if some have creative impulses, how many also have the requisite skill to bring those ideas into fruition? And then how many have the financial resources to do so?
| Quote: |
You don't need prosperity to be creative. That's another falsehood. "Necessity is the mother of invention." |
It sure helps. You need a base of industry to enable such things. There's a reason most inventions are coming out of places with access to advanced technology and educational resources. How can you invent a smartphone if your country doesn't even have a domestic telecommunications company in it?
| Quote: |
You don;t have to be academically inclined to be creative. Tom Ritchey is a high school graduate.
You need to figure out what creativity is. Whatever you think it is, that is if you bother to think about what you post, which I sincerely doubt, it isn't.
As for your other assertions, they're so wrong that I have to ask where you get these ideas from? Cell phones have made Indian fishermen more profitable by providing them direct communication with fishmongers at different ports. |
And how would Korean education have inhibited someone like a Tom Ritchey or Henry Ford or an Indian fisherman? Do Koreans create nothing? Is that what is going on out there in the real world of Korea?
I'm not talking about feel-good stories. I'm talking about developing an academic curriculum and what to emphasize. I'm talking about the virtues of rote and practical education. I'm suggesting that creativity shouldn't be a goal, but a product of one's education.
You seem to be creating creativity as almost a religion. If people just have creativity, all is possible. That sounds nice. It isn't true. There isn't a 100% success rate with it. You have a limited amount of time and resources to spend on students who are each different individuals with individuals needs, aspirations, and abilities. Centering education around creativity to the detriment of skills is just as unyielding as centering it around rote and skills to the detriment of creativity. The only difference is that I would submit that far more people out there are more apt to engage in non-creative pursuits. They want to go out, do a job, make some money, and come home to their families and entertainment.
Creativity without skill and a base of knowledge and direction equals the hipster. |
Again completely false. A creative person will find the skill and knowledge, one way or another.
Why get so defensive and have to bring up Korea? Obviously, the guys who built Hyundai and Samsung were creative thinkers.
You're still stuck on the education strawman. What educational system focuses solely on creativity? Finland's system doesn't. Its foremost goal is equality.
Your view of humanity is quite limited. (Maybe that's what buying into the education beliefs you espouse gets you.) People are capable of much more than you give them credit for.
The scene: A cave in prehistoric times
A: If we cook this food, I bet it would be easier to eat and maybe taste better.
Blind Rabbit (played by sr): Why bother with that? It'll take longer, and we'll have to build a fire. I'd rather just sit here and spit into the wind.
Maybe you're just dumb, or lazy, or both, or you just like to hear yourself talking. No matter which it is, you're dead wrong, almost literally. The humanity you describe, which would include yourself, is little better than a collection of zombies.
But nil desperandum! There's always time to wake up and see the light, even for a blind rabbit.
Last edited by atwood on Wed Dec 25, 2013 9:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
Maybe you're just dumb, or lazy, or both, or you just like to hear yourself talking. No matter which it is, you're dead wrong, almost literally. The humanity you describe, which would include yourself, is little better than a collection of zombies.
But nil deperandum! There's always time to wake up and see the light, even for a blind rabbit. |
It's most likely this; just had the same exact thought prior to reading this thread. |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| This is a teaching forum, and most of us are familiar with the lifestyle the more competitive Korean students lead. We are also probably aware of the disillusioned highschool students that see no point of even paying attention. As teachers if you respond nonchalantly to something like this you should probably consider another profession. Call me self righteous if you want, but given the hurdles I have seen highschool students go through to get into a SKY University allowing something like this to happen is just disgraceful. |
I don't know where you teach, but I assume it's probably in the Seoul area. Realize that close to 50% of the population lives outside of Seoul-Gyeonggi area. And mostly, high school students in the provinces are probably more realistic about their chances of getting into a SKY school. Only a handful are hoping to get into a SKY school, but most aim for regional colleges or one of the National universities. The students I've seen just aren't as 'stressed' as the media portrays. |
Yup, sounds very much like the Seoul/Rest-Of-Korea divide. |
Don't get me wrong, I do know that most want to go to Seoul and give it a try. Just like young people anywhere that want to go to their nation's big city. |
I've taught in both. 50% is a large number, that is not a small amount of students. And like I said, this isn't about the students that entertain the idea. It's about the best and brightest students that really did sacrifice. When you get to that level 3 points on a test can literally be the difference between being accepted and rejected over someone else. As a teacher, regardless of where you teach, you should understand how extremely competitive students operate and you should realize how pathetic this decision was on the test proctors part. If you don't I think you should consider a profession that isn't teaching. It's obviously a ridiculous decision, the answer was wrong lol. I repeat, the answer was wrong. Textbooks don't make facts, reality makes facts.
There is another thread going on right now about whether or not the TOPIK is legit, and now this. This really sheds light on how the standardized testing is run in Korea and reputable the colleges are in Korea. The TOPIK doesn't really have any direct evidence, but when something like this happens on college entrance exams it makes me scratch my head. I'm sure I'm not the only one. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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Creativity at work in the classroom:
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| The challenge to students is to learn to deal with unstructured problems and challenges, Balser said, making their education real. "I chose to focus on the ultimate challenge -- how to keep the human species alive past 2050." |
http://www.gainesville.com/article/20131226/articles/131229754 |
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