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The Japan-Korea relationship.
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jvalmer

Joined: 06 Jun 2003

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:17 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

jvalmer wrote:

Fox wrote:

jvalmer wrote:

They've got to at least educate students what they did during the war that makes many of their Asian neighbors so hostile to them.

No they don't. Those students aren't at fault, and they shouldn't be saddled with the neurotic burden of cultural guilt. Neither should young German kids over World War II. Neither should young Americans over slavery. Neither should young Canadians over historic First Nations inequities. If Koreans or other Asian nations want to dwell over these problems, then that's their problem.

I'm of Jewish descent, and I'm telling you I don't want Germans feeling bad about World War II. If I can man up, so can East Asians.

You do know educating and feelings are two different things? They need to be presented the material, and it's the learner that decides how to feel.

Alright, let me revise my response slightly: obviously the basic details of World War II (the basic details of history for that matter) should be taught. They should be taught in a basic, impersonal fashion though: students should be taught what happened, but not from the perspective of "we did this and that." In short, history is good, but German-style guilt history is not.

Agreed... but the present state is that there are some that know about that 1900-1950 era, but tons of Japanese students that don't even know Korea was colonized by Japan.

I had a Japanese university classmate that learned about it in Canada by some Korean student drinking one day. Was fascinating to see. Of course, me being Canadian may have read like a paragraph about the Pacific theater during WWII in some social studies textbook. He didn't believe it, so he went to the library and found out, was with him to read about it too... lol

cabeza

Joined: 29 Sep 2012

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:22 pm Post subject:

A lot of Japanese I talked to think that the nuclear bombs just came out of the clear blue sky for no reason. They have no context as to why certain things happened. And that can be dangerous when you see them starting to head down that same path again (at least some of the right wing knuckle heads).

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:03 am Post subject:

cabeza wrote:

You bitter little twit.

What am I bitter about?

I'm pointing out that several claims made by posters on here are not wholly representative of the actual situation.

No, Japan didn't just gift a bunch of money to Korea and cause the Miracle on the Han, there were a lot of factors, from Korea's military dictatorship, to speculative Japanese investors, to U.S. pressure and encouragement.

I think we should all be able to agree that Korea's economic development "happened because of Japan" is a gross oversimplification. So when you claim that people are suffering cognitive dissonance because of Japan's investment, I think you're overplaying the hand. Did the Miracle on the Han happen because of Turkey? That has as much basis as Japan. Do you feel that it happened because of Turkey? Or is it because of Japan?

I think in the end, that while other countries outside of the U.S. contributed some, the overwhelming reasons are because of the United States and the Korean people themselves.

Also I don't think there is any more cognitive dissonance between under-40 Koreans who don't credit the U.S. much for their present standard of living and say, young white Americans who don't feel the need to accept any responsibility for Jim Crow or slavery.

And no, Japan has not really owned up to its wartime record or truly apologized. I think the record bears that out. If they don't want to, then fine.

EZE

Joined: 05 May 2012

Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:04 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

And no, Japan has not really owned up to its wartime record or truly apologized.

And Korea has?

http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/11/13/korean-war-criminals-cleared/

None of us are demanding apologies from Korea even though many of us who post on this website has\had family who were victims of Korean war criminals during WWII. It's nearly 2014, for goodness sakes...time to move on.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:45 pm Post subject:

EZE wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

And no, Japan has not really owned up to its wartime record or truly apologized.

And Korea has?

http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/11/13/korean-war-criminals-cleared/

None of us are demanding apologies from Korea even though many of us who post on this website has\had family who were victims of Korean war criminals during WWII.] It's nearly 2014, for goodness sakes...time to move on.

(bolding mine)

One of the sillier things I've heard. During WWII and the few years prior to it...there was NO sovereign Korean government. The Japanese government ruled BOTH Korea and Japan. Those Korean "war criminals" were working for Japan under the orders of the Japanese government.

How in the world is Korea responsible for the actions of its nationals who were under the control of a foreign government? And given at the time Korea was just a colony of Japan, they really had nothing to do with this.

.

cabeza

Joined: 29 Sep 2012

Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:08 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Did the Miracle on the Han happen because of Turkey? That has as much basis as Japan. Do you feel that it happened because of Turkey? Or is it because of Japan?

Sure, give the Turks some credit.
I'm sure if I told my wife or some students or my next door neighbour that Turkey aided Korea in it's development they would be interested and surprised. That isn't the issue.

If I told the same people that the initial stages of the first economic plan period, Japanese money (for whatever reason it was given) and subsequesnt low interest soft loans (whether they were prodded by the US, which of course they were, or not) played a big part in setting Korea off on the path and position it has reached today, the response would be....somewhat negative, and in many cases denial and disbelief.

Quote:

Also I don't think there is any more cognitive dissonance between under-40 Koreans who don't credit the U.S. much for their present standard of living and say, young white Americans who don't feel the need to accept any responsibility for Jim Crow or slavery.

What's that got to do with the price of fish?
But as you bring it up, there is a decent sized minority of liberal-puritans in the US that do feel guilt for Jim Crow and before. White-guilt, while not total, is a real phenomenon and is often strongest in university aged middle class kids.
At lot more so than any kind of "Korean guilt/gratitude" in regards to the USA.

cabeza

Joined: 29 Sep 2012

Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:10 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

EZE wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

And no, Japan has not really owned up to its wartime record or truly apologized.

And Korea has?

http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/11/13/korean-war-criminals-cleared/

None of us are demanding apologies from Korea even though many of us who post on this website has\had family who were victims of Korean war criminals during WWII.] It's nearly 2014, for goodness sakes...time to move on.

Plenty of Polish collaborators were brought to justice by the Polish government post 1945, and Poland was controlled by Germany (or the USSR) when the terrible things happened.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:36 pm Post subject:

cabeza wrote:

If I told the same people that the initial stages of the first economic plan period, Japanese money (for whatever reason it was given) and subsequesnt low interest soft loans (whether they were prodded by the US, which of course they were, or not) played a big part in setting Korea off on the path and position it has reached today, the response would be....somewhat negative, and in many cases denial and disbelief.

I think it all comes down to how it is phrased.

"The Han Miracle was because of Japan"- likely to get a less than enthusiastic reply.

"Under US prodding, Japan and Korea entered into a series of agreements, where Japanese investment helped contribute to the development of several key industries in Korea"- likely to get a far better reception.

Quote:

Plenty of Polish collaborators were brought to justice by the Polish government post 1945, and Poland was controlled by Germany (or the USSR) when the terrible things happened.

But the Polish government wasn't held responsible for them.

And seriously? Are you comparing the COMMUNIST government of post-war Poland to that of South Korea? The Polish government was at that time under the influence of the USSR, who was likely using the trials to clean house and deal with anyone they didn't like as much as anything. There's a reason the number of trials and executions in countries occupied by the Allies is significantly different compared to those occupied by the Communists.

The Allies essentially wanted the greatest number of people from the defeated countries to remain "useful" as was politically practicable.

EZE

Joined: 05 May 2012

Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:45 am Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

One of the sillier things I've heard. During WWII and the few years prior to it...there was NO sovereign Korean government. The Japanese government ruled BOTH Korea and Japan. Those Korean "war criminals" were working for Japan under the orders of the Japanese government.

How in the world is Korea responsible for the actions of its nationals who were under the control of a foreign government? And given at the time Korea was just a colony of Japan, they really had nothing to do with this.

Actually, men who survived those POW camps think Koreans really did have something to do with it. In fact, the Koreans had a much worse reputation than even the Japanese!

From the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_under_Japanese_rule

After the war, 148 Koreans were convicted of Class B and C war crimes, 23 of whom were sentenced to death (compared to 920 Japanese who were sentenced to death), including Korean prison guards who were particularly notorious for their brutality during the war. The figure is relatively high considering that ethnic Koreans made up a very small percentage of the Japanese military. Justice Bert Röling, who represented the Netherlands at the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal, noted that "many of the commanders and guards in POW camps were Koreans – the Japanese apparently did not trust them as soldiers – and it is said that they were sometimes far more cruel than the Japanese." In his memoirs, Colonel Eugene C. Jacobs wrote that during the Bataan Death March, "the Korean guards were the most abusive. The Japs didn't trust them in battle, so used them as service troops; the Koreans were anxious to get blood on their bayonets; and then they thought they were veterans." Korean guards were sent to the remote jungles of Burma, where Lt. Col. William A. (Bill) Henderson wrote from his own experience that some of the guards overlooking the construction of the Burma Railway "were moronic and at times almost bestial in their treatment of prisoners. This applied particularly to Korean private soldiers, conscripted only for guard and sentry duties in many parts of the Japanese empire. Regrettably, they were appointed as guards for the prisoners throughout the camps of Burma and Siam." The highest-ranking Korean to be prosecuted after the war was Lieutenant General Hong Sa-Ik, who was in command of all the Japanese prisoner-of-war camps in the Philippines.

cabeza

Joined: 29 Sep 2012

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:29 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Normal people don't talk like that.
And to be honest, nowadays I just avoid even mentioning Japan, because i can't be bothered with the bs that comes along with it.

Quote:

I'm not saying the Korean government should be held responsible. And neither is anyone else here. The original statement was something like Korea hasn't owned up to what they did during the war.

cabeza

Joined: 29 Sep 2012

Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:26 pm Post subject:

Japan PM Shinzo Abe visits Yasukuni WW2 shrine http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25517205 What a dick. Japan sure doesn't do themselves any favors.

EZE

Joined: 05 May 2012

Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:01 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Exactly what happened with Shane Youman a few months back ago, oh wait...

I didn't see anything about the protests and candlelight vigils. YouTube has tons of links about protests and candlelight vigils in South Korea, even regarding a traffic accident where two Koreans died after being hit by a foreigner driving a vehicle. I can't find similar videos about this Shane Youman guy.

Steelrails wrote:

There's a difference between private enterprise and criminal operators vs. official government action and military units engaged in activity backed by civilian authorities.

A while back, I read about a fire in a red light district in Seoul where a bunch of prostitutes, some underage, died because they were locked inside by their owners and couldn't escape. Meanwhile, people talk about entire units of Korean soldiers going to these same places together. It's really no different than the Japanese troops visiting comfort stations. It is what it is.

The South Korean people, living in a democracy, actually have more control over what is and isn't tolerated than the Japanese did under their former government during WWII, so that's a very weak cop out. Harkening back to YouTube, I can find videos of huge protests where Koreans were protesting against imported beef and the rare diseases it could cause. But I can't find videos of similar huge protests where they're protesting against imported sex slaves and the common diseases they can spread.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:43 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Normal people don't talk like that.

College educated adults? I get your point in a general sense, but I think in any kind of article or posting, that that kind of statement would be unusual. Most articles addressing sensitive subjects use similar statements when discussing issues, although of course the punditry which many people follow reduces things to ridiculous, exaggerated statements.

=============================================

Quote:

He plays for the Lotte Giants. A Korean player made some racially insensitive remarks and there was swift condemnation and Lotte fans were pretty pissed. The next game where they faced there was an edge to his at bats against Youman. It was a pretty big incident and went about pretty much the same way a racially insensitive incident would go down back home with a wave of viral outrage and so forth.

As for why sex slaves involved in a 45 year period of occupation by a foreign power who has repeatedly tried to invade that nation gets more attention than a trickle of prostitutes in the exercise of criminal, private enterprise gets more play, I have no idea.

Likewise for military vehicles killing civilians under the auspices of a government, that while it did secure independence, also propped up a military dictatorship and crushed democratic movements draws large amounts of ire vs. prostitutes, yeah, I have no idea.

Prostitution is prostitution. It's the worlds oldest profession and exists in every country on Earth. Unless I'm mistaken and there are massive protests over prostitution elsewhere, then I don't see anything abnormal about Korea's issues it chooses.

EZE

Joined: 05 May 2012

Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:27 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

As for why sex slaves involved in a 45 year period of occupation by a foreign power who has repeatedly tried to invade that nation gets more attention than a trickle of prostitutes in the exercise of criminal, private enterprise gets more play, I have no idea.

You say it's a trickle, but there's more sex trafficking now in South Korea in 2014 than there was during the Japanese occupation. Drew Brees could stand outside of Seohyun station and hit dozens of brothel poles and anma neons with a football, and it's not even a red light district there. When you look at the number of women from Korea, the Philippines, and China working as prostitutes in South Korea right now in 2014, it's apparent modern day South Korea has outdone Imperial Japan with sex trafficking and pimping. But it's socially acceptable since the women are being used as cum dumpsters by Korean society instead of Japanese soldiers.

Steelrails wrote:

Likewise for military vehicles killing civilians under the auspices of a government, that while it did secure independence, also propped up a military dictatorship and crushed democratic movements draws large amounts of ire vs. prostitutes, yeah, I have no idea.

What does a traffic accident in 2002 during Kim Dae Jung's presidency have to do with military dictatorships?

And what about the beef protests? Do you really think the protesters actually believe it's easier to catch mad cow disease from eating imported beef than it is to contract and spread sexually transmitted diseases from bareback sex with imported comfort women?

Steelrails wrote:

Prostitution is prostitution.

No, it depends on who the pimp is.

When the Japanese were the pimps and Koreans, Chinese, and Filipinas were the prostitutes, it's a total outrage and a national apology from a subsequent generation is necessary. When Koreans are the pimps and Koreans, Chinese and Filipinas are the prostitutes, it's "enterprise" and excusable.

Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:34 am Post subject:

EZE wrote:

No, it depends on who the pimp is.

To me the pimp is irrelevant. It's whether the prostitute has absolute free will in their choices.

But I get your point.

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