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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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Nigeria is lashing gays for violating sodomy laws.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25765845
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Under Islamic law, courts can punish homosexual acts by stoning to death.
But the judge said he took into account that the Muslim man, Mubarak Ibrahim, 20, carried out the acts seven years ago, and had stopped the practice. |
So he was thirteen at the time? So creepy, but let us focus on Russia because hosting the Olympics means it is safe to judge them. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Because one group does something worse nothing else can be discussed? I think there are many more things you could find to criticize Russia for, but all this talk of cultural diversity provided by Russia with vauge laws against things like hooliganism or gay propaganda is ridiculous. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Because one group does something worse nothing else can be discussed? |
Of course it can be discussed, but at the same time, when much more severe examples are available, wondering at the motives which leads to the less severe example being discussed at length while the more severe example receives less (if any) attention is also legitimate. Especially when the race of the broader populace involved seems to be a correlating factor. Titus said something along the lines of not caring what some Indians somewhere are doing. Given the dynamics of discussions like this, that attitude seems to be the norm; "barbarism" is evidently the de facto expectation for non-White (and arguably East Asian) populaces, even in the minds of their self-declared proponents, and I personally think that's more interesting than whether gays can have pride parades in Russia or not. And that's not even getting into the political element of such criticism, wherein Nigerians lashing gays is trivial because Nigeria itself is trivial, while Russia is another matter. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Because one group does something worse nothing else can be discussed? |
Of course it can be discussed, but at the same time, when much more severe examples are available, wondering at the motives which leads to the less severe example being discussed at length while the more severe example receives less (if any) attention is also legitimate. Especially when the race of the broader populace involved seems to be a correlating factor. Titus said something along the lines of not caring what some Indians somewhere are doing. Given the dynamics of discussions like this, that attitude seems to be the norm; "barbarism" is evidently the de facto expectation for non-White (and arguably East Asian) populaces, even in the minds of their self-declared proponents, and I personally think that's more interesting than whether gays can have pride parades in Russia or not. |
It's because people don't know what is going on in the world, it is not surprising. Russia is hosting the Olympics, Russia did something controversial, therefore controversy. Also, the Russian protesters are better at managing the media than those in Africa, so they get more media attention.
The law isn't about whether they can have gay rights parades or not, that is actually a separate Moscow city law, I believe, although the law in question outlaws that as well. Part of the issue is that people think that the law is the problem, but the problem is that in Russia most of the laws are applied in a selective manner, i.e. opposition journalists murders don't get solved and anti-homosexual vigilantes who torture gays don't go to jail and opposition figures go to jail for being corrupt, which many are, when corrupt government officials don't. I think that conversation is the most interesting one about Russia, so I do agree that only focusing on the law itself isn't the right one.
You are of course right to an extent about why people ignore some of the problems in places like Africa, but I dislike when people marginalize legitimate concerns because there is something worse out there, as if it is not possible to think more than one thing is a problem. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Leon"][quote="Fox"]
| Leon wrote: |
| Because one group does something worse nothing else can be discussed? |
I dunno, let's ask Leon . . .
| Leon wrote: |
| Russia is hosting the Olympics, Russia did something controversial, therefore controversy. |
Oh, so that's why we care about Russia's anti-gay propaganda laws, because the Olympics. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Kuros"][quote="Leon"]
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Because one group does something worse nothing else can be discussed? |
I dunno, let's ask Leon . . .
| Leon wrote: |
| Russia is hosting the Olympics, Russia did something controversial, therefore controversy. |
Oh, so that's why we care about Russia's anti-gay propaganda laws, because the Olympics. |
Thanks for asking, so why do we care about Russia's anti-gay propaganda law? |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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The Olympics are merely a useful setting for the propaganda war. Without the Olympics, we'd still see American kvetching over it.
Putin is a legitimate and powerful rival to the American oligarchy. He pushes back against people who are convinced that only they may do the pushing. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
The Olympics are merely a useful setting for the propaganda war. Without the Olympics, we'd still see American kvetching over it.
Putin is a legitimate and powerful rival to the American oligarchy. He pushes back against people who are convinced that only they may do the pushing. |
Yes this is true, and it is also true that the people pushing against Putin would be right about a lot of things they could say about Russia, and it is even true what Putin says about America in many cases. It is legitimate to discuss concerns about Russia's mistreatment of minority groups, regardless of how you present the context of why people focus on it.
Putin does the same sort of things when it comes to America, especially when he talks about his grave concern for international law. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| That's fair. I make no attempt to hide my bias on this matter. I agree with the law and I agree with a whole bunch of Putin's actions. Americans may only dream for a leader who will throw Soros rabble in jail along side billionaire thieves. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| You are of course right to an extent about why people ignore some of the problems in places like Africa, but I dislike when people marginalize legitimate concerns because there is something worse out there, as if it is not possible to think more than one thing is a problem. |
A question for you: what distinguishes a legitimate concern from an illegitimate concern? A legitimate conversation from an illegitimate one? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, at least you're honest. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Titus said something along the lines of not caring what some Indians somewhere are doing. Given the dynamics of discussions like this, that attitude seems to be the norm; "barbarism" is evidently the de facto expectation for non-White (and arguably East Asian) populaces, even in the minds of their self-declared proponents |
No, I just don't care. I don't care what Indians do with India because I have no connection to India. They may do as they please. Russia (along with Hungary) is the best chance right now for white people somewhere to escape degenerate liberalism. I'm ethnocentric. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| You are of course right to an extent about why people ignore some of the problems in places like Africa, but I dislike when people marginalize legitimate concerns because there is something worse out there, as if it is not possible to think more than one thing is a problem. |
A question for you: what distinguishes a legitimate concern from an illegitimate concern? A legitimate conversation from an illegitimate one? |
A legitimate concern is something that is real, i.e. Obama is a muslim is not a legitimate concern, but Obama has expanded the surveillance state is.
A legitimate conversation is A) honest and B) based on a legitimate (see above) foundation |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
| Putin is a legitimate and powerful rival to the American oligarchy. |
Probably overstating it.
These celebrities become patriots whenever a Democrat is in office. Wait until a Republican comes back into power (it will be awhile). Then they will be condemning southern states and American imperialism again. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a quick overview of what's really going on:
http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2013/12/vladimir-vladimirovich-and-the-grey-lady/
Basically everybody involved in organizing against Putin is an oligarch, and often not even American. But America being what it is, it ends up being the face of this opposition.
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The heart of the Magnistsky saga was the death in Russia, while under custody, of an attorney for Hermitage Capital, a hedge fund run by British citizen William Browder. Browder made billions in Russia before running afoul of Russian authorities. His Hermitage Capital was funded by the Lebanese national Edmond Safra and eventually claimed to have lost $300 million after having moved billions out of Russia. Browder, who has renounced his US citizenship, lobbied hard in Washington to have the Magnitsky Act passed. Why was the US involved in passing a law to protect Lebanese and British capital and a Russian prisoner? America hasn’t enough trouble with its own prison system that it needs to legislate on the Russian penal system? Are there no American politicians who have been implicated in human rights abuses?Keller’s final point is that Putin is being heavy handed over the Ukrainian/EU integration crisis, but Keller avoids discussing the deep historic and ethnic links between Russia and Ukraine. Most Americans would agree that Russia should stay out of NAFTA negotiations, seeing North America as clearly not within the Russian sphere of influence. Ukrainians are deeply divided over the integration with Europe, so why not let the Ukrainians and Russians work out their trade relations without the American government getting involved?
xxx
Probably more than any other topic, The NY Times has repeatedly published articles in defense of the long imprisoned and recently freed Russian oligarch Mikhail Khodorkovsky, a man whose rise to power was filled with unsavory schemes to appropriate businesses which were once the property of the Russian people. The NY Times Sabrina Tavernese wrote in 2001 that he had “orchestrated a series a flagrant corporate abuses of minority shareholders unparalleled in the short history of modern Russian capitalism.”
Khdorkovsky eventually wound up the billionaire owner of Yukos Oil, which he planned to sell to Exxon Mobil. Khdorkovsky also had political ambitions, creating the Open Russian Foundation and putting Henry Kissinger and Lord Jacob Rothschild on the board of directors. He was clearly eying political power by making close ties with the West, even being named to the Advisory Board of the Carlyle Group, all of which made him a potential threat to the Kremlin. |
Carlyle, Exxon, Kissinger, Rothchild, Bowder, Safra, and so on.
Putin steps on big toes. The ass-end of this is a propaganda campaign about gays to fire up the people. What they intend to do with the fired up Huffington Post crowd is beyond me. |
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