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Newbie
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| Newbie wrote: |
| BUT, what I can't get my head around: When people tell World Traveler about water boarding torture, he dismisses it as being "5 years ago." And when people bring up Rwanda, he says "It doesn't matter because it was 20 years ago." |
WRONG. I said the water boarding done by the U.S. was not comparable to the tortuous water boarding done by the Japanese (and as an aside isn't even happening anymore). I said Rwanda was sad and regrettable and explained the reasons the U.S. didn't intervene more than it did. |
I really shouldn't bother with this... but ... here's exactly what you said:
| World Traveler wrote: |
| Quote: |
| In January 2009, with a change in administrations, U.S. President Barack Obama banned the use of waterboarding and other forms of torture in interrogations of detainees. |
Hasn't been done for five years now. |
And on Rwanda:
| World Traveler wrote: |
| About Rwanda, that is sad. It was also 20 years ago. |
| World Traveler wrote: |
Why are you blaming the U.S., but not Canada, for inaction? That's ridiculous. |
You're right, Canada stood by too. But please do tell me when or where I ever blamed the US for this (I only commented on how amusing it was that you brushed aside criticism pointed at America because it was 20 years ago), or, when did I not blame Canada?
You may want to work on your reading comprehension... and pay a little closer attention to things you say.
You have some decent points from time to time, but overall your weak reading and writing skills make it easy for people to simply get hung up on the ridiculousness of lots of what you say. (ironic I know. My writing is pretty poor too!)
I'm sure you'll grow out of it, though. A little more travel around the world should help you gain a more accurate view of world affairs and history. |
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Newbie
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| young_clinton wrote: |
| Newbie wrote: |
| I'm Canadian, and in general a fan of the US. Sure, I make fun of American ignorance, stupidity, and the fact that a very large part of America is nothing more than an intolerant, fanatical, hateful, Christian regime (as opposed to the intolerant, fanatical, hateful Muslim regions they're trying to save the world from) to my close American friends only. |
The fact that you think you are entitled to present yourself as better than Americans, especially in the manner that your doing it possibly means that you are well.......not so smart. People that are bigots are usually bigots because.......they are not so smart. There has been studies on it recently. |
I apologize. I didn't mean to come off as being "better than Americans." I'm certainly better than many Americans, but many Americans are definitely better than me.
I have no problem with Americans in general. I do kinda hate the NRA, bible thumping, anti-gay, racist, "USA! USA!", types though. "Hate" I guess is a strong word. More like a, "oye, what's wrong with these people." And I feel bad that they do ruin the reputations of the millions and millions of respectable Americans out there.
| young_clinton wrote: |
Like I and others have mentioned before you're little country doesn't have to worry about a military because its under the protection of the US. Are you smart enough to see the picture on that. |
I always find that argument amusing. From what exactly are you, or did you ever, protect us? I'll maybe give you Germany. But really, who knows if they ever really would have been able to make it across the Atlantic, or heck, if they even would have been able to take over Europe, let alone pose a threat to Canada. That's all very hypothetical and not really worth arguing about.
And of course you do realize that we actually do have, and worry about, a military? We don't use it to go around the world telling people what to do and force our ideals on others, but it is there. And is used for valid purposes. |
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Newbie
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| Newbie wrote: |
| WT is the ugly, ignorant Christian American that most of the world hates. |
I'm an atheist. I'm a member and supporter of this (American) organization which spreads irreligion around the world:
www.ffrf.org
Irreligion is skyrocketing in the U.S. btw. And in my view atheism>Buddhism>Christianity>Islam (though it's not politically correct to say). Christianity = Islam is certainly not true. They are not exactly the same. |
I apologize for pegging you incorrectly.
Not that I think being of any religion is necessarily bad in and of itself. Just not a fan of the evangelizing, only our religion is acceptable, type. |
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radcon
Joined: 23 May 2011
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Newbie wrote: |
| young_clinton wrote: |
| Newbie wrote: |
| I'm Canadian, and in general a fan of the US. Sure, I make fun of American ignorance, stupidity, and the fact that a very large part of America is nothing more than an intolerant, fanatical, hateful, Christian regime (as opposed to the intolerant, fanatical, hateful Muslim regions they're trying to save the world from) to my close American friends only. |
The fact that you think you are entitled to present yourself as better than Americans, especially in the manner that your doing it possibly means that you are well.......not so smart. People that are bigots are usually bigots because.......they are not so smart. There has been studies on it recently. |
I apologize. I didn't mean to come off as being "better than Americans." I'm certainly better than many Americans, but many Americans are definitely better than me.
I have no problem with Americans in general. I do kinda hate the NRA, bible thumping, anti-gay, racist, "USA! USA!", types though. "Hate" I guess is a strong word. More like a, "oye, what's wrong with these people." And I feel bad that they do ruin the reputations of the millions and millions of respectable Americans out there.
| young_clinton wrote: |
Like I and others have mentioned before you're little country doesn't have to worry about a military because its under the protection of the US. Are you smart enough to see the picture on that. |
I always find that argument amusing. From what exactly are you, or did you ever, protect us? I'll maybe give you Germany. But really, who knows if they ever really would have been able to make it across the Atlantic, or heck, if they even would have been able to take over Europe, let alone pose a threat to Canada. That's all very hypothetical and not really worth arguing about.
And of course you do realize that we actually do have, and worry about, a military? We don't use it to go around the world telling people what to do and force our ideals on others, but it is there. And is used for valid purposes. |
If the US didn't exist, the Soviet Union would have annexed Canada right quick. Why wouldn't they?
Why does Canada have a military at all if there are no threats to Canada as you claim?
I always wonder why non Americans have problem with the NRA? No one is forcing you to move to the US and buy guns. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| radcon wrote: |
I always wonder why non Americans have problem with the NRA? No one is forcing you to move to the US and buy guns. |
Possibly because the NRA, while it presents itself as a representative of gun owners, is these days actually more of a public relations puppet for the gun manufacturing industry, and in that capacity concerns itself with international matters to at least some extent, both directly (through advocacy and lobbying) and indirectly (through its support for the American firearms industry resulting in American guns spreading all over the globe).
Anyone who thinks gun control is a good idea has at least some cause to take issue with the NRA, whether they live in America or not. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Newbie wrote: |
| World Traveler wrote: |
| Newbie wrote: |
| BUT, what I can't get my head around: When people tell World Traveler about water boarding torture, he dismisses it as being "5 years ago." And when people bring up Rwanda, he says "It doesn't matter because it was 20 years ago." |
WRONG. I said the water boarding done by the U.S. was not comparable to the tortuous water boarding done by the Japanese (and as an aside isn't even happening anymore). I said Rwanda was sad and regrettable and explained the reasons the U.S. didn't intervene more than it did. |
I really shouldn't bother with this... but ... here's exactly what you said:
| World Traveler wrote: |
| Quote: |
| In January 2009, with a change in administrations, U.S. President Barack Obama banned the use of waterboarding and other forms of torture in interrogations of detainees. |
Hasn't been done for five years now. |
And on Rwanda:
| World Traveler wrote: |
| About Rwanda, that is sad. It was also 20 years ago. |
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Since when does "that is sad" = "it doesn't matter". Those are opposites. It sucks, but the United States can't save everyone at all times.
Look at the discussion again. What I wrote was ridiculous/unreasonable? (?_?)
1st
| Numpty wrote: |
| they can continue to waterboard suspects with impunity |
Next
| Numpty wrote: |
| World Traveler wrote: |
| Quote: |
| In January 2009, with a change in administrations, U.S. President Barack Obama banned the use of waterboarding and other forms of torture in interrogations of detainees. |
Hasn't been done for five years now. |
Oh, well done you wonderful people!!! You should all receive a medal (American soldiers probably already have) for not doing something terrible. Again. You must feel proud. |
_________________________________
You might want to take your own advice.
| Newbie wrote: |
You may want to work on your reading comprehension... and pay a little closer attention to things you say.
You have some decent points from time to time, but overall your weak reading and writing skills make it easy for people to simply get hung up on the ridiculousness of lots of what you say. |
| Newbie wrote: |
| I'm sure you'll grow out of it, though. A little more travel around the world should help you gain a more accurate view of world affairs and history. |
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Newbie
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| radcon wrote: |
If the US didn't exist, the Soviet Union would have annexed Canada right quick. Why wouldn't they? |
I have never heard of any plans/intentions/desires from the Soviets to so do. If you can show me something along those lines, then I will offer up a big "thanks" to the US for deterring them. (and I'm not being an arse. Maybe the Soviets really did have such plans and I"m just not aware of them)
| radcon wrote: |
Why does Canada have a military at all if there are no threats to Canada as you claim? |
You're just being difficult here, aren't you. I maintain there are no direct threats to Canada, but a military is needed. They help domestically. As well, when situations arise in other areas of the world that we deem worthy (or I guess better to say "in our best interests to help out": i.e. WWII, Korea, Gulf War, Bosnia, Afghanistan. etc.) they are used then.
| radcon wrote: |
I always wonder why non Americans have problem with the NRA? No one is forcing you to move to the US and buy guns. |
I don't know about other non Americans, but from a Canadian point of view: we hate to see them bringing down your country.
Honestly man, most of us think of America as a big brother/cousin who we always want to see to do well. I don't think there are any other 2 countries in the world as similar to each other as Canada and the USA are. It's true too that as American prospers, Canada gains. However, as family, we also are quick to point out when America does something stupid. I fully agree that some random Canadian stranger yelling at you guys in a bar in Korea is a complete idiot.
But it's also true that we can get annoyed when we hear Americans go on about how it's the best country in the world, how everyone wants to live the American dream, and "only in America can someone go from xxx and become a great yyy...." crap. It's crap to us, because it's not only in American. Same can happen in Canada, Australia, Sweden, etc. etc. (I think the Simpsons did a bit on that once. Kinda funny) |
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chellovek
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| chellovek wrote: |
Also deciding which things are most important, influential, powerful etc is hopelessly subjective as to be almost pointless to talk about. |
I don't think this is necessarily true. There are plenty of objectives factors which can be considered. Here, let's take an easy example: which has influenced the world more, England, or the Australian Aborigines? One could hem and haw and say, "Oh, it's hopelessly subjective," but it would be so absurd as to be almost a joke, because it's clear that England is the correct answer. That's an extreme example, but it's extreme to make a point: you can't answer "England" without admitting there's some basis for answering "England," and once you admit there's a basis, your case collapses upon itself.
Comparing political entities so far removed from one another in time might pose certain challenges, but that's quite different than suggesting it's a pointless exercise. If nothing else it's an exercise that could help us clarify the thoughts and reveal the biases of both ourselves and others, all while being the perfect context for raising any number of educational historic facts. I don't see how anyone could call that pointless. |
I get what you're saying, son, so I'll explain myself a bit more literally.
Our chum seems to be arguing that the US is objectively the greatest single benefactor to civilization in history.
I scuttled down the stem of history to suggest that events back then, for the sake of argument, might be considered more pivotal. You seemed to pluck an Australian Aboriginal leaf somewhat removed from my point. At what point were Australian Aboriginals at the crux of human history in the sense that I was idly suggesting?
My argument doesn't collapse in upon itself, the whole idea of what is most important, (aside from your red herring about Aborigines and England), is subjective. The guy quoted computers telephones, etc, which is fair play to him. He reckons those things are key. I suggested for the sake of argument that flint tools might have been more important. Some might say the wheel was more important, others might say the first code of law was most important. It's a wide and interesting field of discussion, that is all I was saying. I was simply saying that because the US is at the top just now does not mean it has been the greatest blessing to civilization in all history. |
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chellovek
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| chellovek wrote: |
Also deciding which things are most important, influential, powerful etc is hopelessly subjective as to be almost pointless to talk about. |
I don't think this is necessarily true. There are plenty of objectives factors which can be considered. Here, let's take an easy example: which has influenced the world more, England, or the Australian Aborigines? One could hem and haw and say, "Oh, it's hopelessly subjective," but it would be so absurd as to be almost a joke, because it's clear that England is the correct answer. That's an extreme example, but it's extreme to make a point: you can't answer "England" without admitting there's some basis for answering "England," and once you admit there's a basis, your case collapses upon itself.
Comparing political entities so far removed from one another in time might pose certain challenges, but that's quite different than suggesting it's a pointless exercise. If nothing else it's an exercise that could help us clarify the thoughts and reveal the biases of both ourselves and others, all while being the perfect context for raising any number of educational historic facts. I don't see how anyone could call that pointless. |
I say it is pointless in the sense that no objective factual decision can be reached that is agreed to by all. The earlier tone of the thread was that the US is objectively the best because of x,y, and z. So I said x,y, and z. I said it was pointless because there is no way for all people to agree about what is the most important contribution to civilisation. WT reckons the US contributed most, which is his call. I was just saying that the question of who has done most can be bent so many ways. |
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I'm With You
Joined: 01 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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Canada pretends to be an autonomous nation, but it is not.
Canada is really just an extension of the United States. The foreign policies and even the culture are indistinguishable.
My Canadian colleague, not long ago in fact, laughed and said, "We have more in common with you guys in L.A. than we do with those French racist separatist pricks in Montreal!"
The fact is, most of Canada and Canadians are Americanized. They eat, watch, listen, wear and drive American culture. They are American.
It's unavoidable.
Get it over with already. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm With You wrote: |
| Canada pretends to be an autonomous nation, but it is not. |
Actually, even if it were a vassal of the U.S. in terms of foreign affairs as you contend, it would be autonomous because it governs itself. |
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Hokie21
Joined: 01 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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People painting the typical American as a bible thumping, gun toting religious nut is about as fair as painting the typical Canadian as a backwoods barely English speaking, logging/oil rigger retard.
I recently traveled around Canada and at times felt like I was in a very cold Alabama by the people I encountered. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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If I may, I'll cut down your two posts into this quintessential point for the sake of brevity:
| chellovek wrote: |
I say it is pointless in the sense that no objective factual decision can be reached that is agreed to by all
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I said it was pointless because there is no way for all people to agree about what is the most important contribution to civilisation. |
If two people disagree about something, though, that may well simply mean that one of them is wrong. If our only goal is to persuade others, then yes, this may be a real impediment. If by contrast we number the refinement of our own thoughts and opinions among our goals with regards to conversation, disagreement is not only no impediment, but may even be potentially beneficial. An uncharismatic fellow like myself has little chance of persuading anyone of anything, so of course my goal in conversation is going to be more along the lines of the second objective than the first. It's also interesting that whether a given topic of discussion is pointless or not is something that could be considered "subjective" in its own right, yet that didn't cause you to demur from declaring the topic pointless and then even actively arguing to defend said declaration. In debating me along those lines, you're actually validating my broader position.
As an aside, the English/Australian Aborigine comparison was meant to illustrate a general principle, not to allude to anything you said in particular regarding those specific peoples. |
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joelove
Joined: 12 May 2011
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:44 am Post subject: |
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I liked Natalie Merchant's take on the matter. This is a song she wrote for 10,000 Maniacs which came out in the late 80s on the album "In My Tribe".
"Gun Shy"
I always knew that you would take yourself far from home
As soon as, as far as, you could go
By the quarter inch cut of your hair and the Army issue pay
For the past eight weeks I can tell where you've been
For I knew, I could see, it was all cut and dried to me
There was soldier's blue blood streaming inside your veins
There is a world outside of this room
And when you meet it promise me
You won't meet it with your gun
So now you are one of the brave few
It's awfully sad we need boys like you
I hope the day never comes
For here's your live round son
Stock and barrel, safety trigger, here's your gun
Well I knew, I could see, it was all cut and dried to me
There was soldiers blue blood streaming inside your veins
There is a world outside of this room
And when you meet it promise me
You won't meet it with your gun taking aim
For I don't mean to argue
They've made a decent boy of you
And I don't mean to spoil your homecoming
But baby brother you should expect me to
"Stock and barrel, safety trigger, here's your gun"
So now does your heart pitter pat, with a patriotic song
When you see the stripes of old glory waving?
Well I knew, I could see, it was all cut and dried to me
There was soldier's blue blood streaming inside your veins
There is a world outside of this room
And when you meet it promise me
You won't meet it with your gun taking aim
Well, I don't mean to argue, they've made a decent boy of you
And I don't mean to spoil your homecoming, my baby brother Jude
Oh, I don't mean to hurt you by saying this again
They're so good at making soldiers but they're not as good at making men |
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Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:56 am Post subject: |
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Yes, but I think Toby Keith's take is a bit more eloquent.
Ohhh Justice will be served
And the battle will rage
This big dog will fight
When you rattle his cage
And you'll be sorry that you messed with
The U.S. of A.
'Cause we'll put a boot in your ass
It's the American way
I'm tearing up right now just reading it. |
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