|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
jackson7
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Location: Kim Jong Il's Future Fireball
|
 Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:54 am Post subject: |
 |
|
In my circle, those with doctorates teaching and researching TESOL-related subjects started at 4.5-5 million/month for 12 hours/year. Expectations to publish/present with additional payments, but most educators I know that are approaching that level are presenting and publishing anyway.
According to the 2012 census, 3.07% of Americans over 25 had earned doctorates, 8.05% had earned master's degrees, and 30.94% had earned bachelor's degrees. Those with master's degrees are in fairly rare company, too, according to these statistics.
J7 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Wow. More and more people in America are becoming more educated. The percentage is growing fast (though those with higher education are still in the minority). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
WT simple lesson in employment for many fields: the better jobs tend to be filled through referrals or focused advertisements (ie not here or on mass job websites).
Those good to great University positions will be filled internally or through narrow focus job publications as such Universities are not interested in mass applications and know what they want.
My former University in Busan, while not the best, offered great conditions but 90% of the hiring was done via refferals or through services that seek only highly qualified applicants. The qualifications requested in that ad would mean a base pay of 4.5M at my former University with better vacation. More is required of the lecturers however....
How then do you get access to such jobs? Qualifications, experience and networking.
Amazingly enough, similar rules apply to numerous employment fields! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| So your advice to people is to get a PhD (then with that PhD get experience and network and 4.5 will come their way)? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| So your advice to people is to get a PhD (then with that PhD get experience and network and 4.5 will come their way)? |
My advice would be don't do a PHD unless you're acually interested in all that research. You know as well as I do that you don't need a PHD to teach people English. You don't really need a Masters either, but universities seem to think you do, so people have to toe the line to get that cushy hours job. Don't do one to make money, that's for sure. I know guys with just a CELTA making more than 4.5 with reasonable work loads. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Just a CELTA? That's a shocker. Did they get a 'pass A' on the CELTA course? How much experience did they have prior to getting hired? These people are working for the British Council?
Others I've talked to in Korea (and I've seen posts online echoing this) have said that having a CELTA didn't really help them at all in their job search. (No one doing the hiring knew what it was.) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| World Traveler wrote: |
| So your advice to people is to get a PhD (then with that PhD get experience and network and 4.5 will come their way)? |
My advice is that without upgraded quals and networking your odds or getting the better jobs are slim to none. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jackson7 wrote: |
| 4.5-5 million/month for 12 hours/year. |
Twelve hours of work per year?
I think you better re-check with "your circle". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If you are required to publish, then the work load is 12 hours a week teaching plus hours of work weekly researching, writing and then sending out your work to numerous publications in the hopes one will publish it. (Yes, if you do publish you get paid extra.) Maybe you can do all that and still take your full vacation, maybe not.
Then there's the matter of tenure. Without it, you need good to excellent evaluations plus continued publishing to retain your position. Beaucoup stress.
For 5 million won a month, it doesn't seem worth the time and effort. You could make a lot more money for the same effort in lots of jobs. You could make more money as a public school teacher in the U.S., and if you do all the networking that keeps getting suggested on this site, find yourself doing textbook consulting, giving seminars, etc. and making more.
Don't forget to factor in the now chronically low won into all this as well. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jackson7
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Location: Kim Jong Il's Future Fireball
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
12 hours per year is indeed correct, as it is the way many professors' contracts refer to their teaching responsibilities. This works out to either two semesters of 6 hours/week each, or one semester of 9 hours/week, followed by one semester of 3 hours/week. Some teaching-focused universities ask their tenure-track faculty to teach 15 or 18 hours per year.
The matter of tenure is VERY different here in Korea than it is in many western countries. If you keep up with your regularly required publications, which can be easy to do because of all the domestic publishing opportunities, tenure can be almost a foregone conclusion when you sign onto the tenure-track position. In the States, I recently read an article showing that less than 30% of tenure-track academics pass their review.
Depending on how much of your teaching load is composed of courses you have already developed materials for and taught before, and how many students you are supervising, it's not unreasonable at all to think that one could keep up with his research during the school semesters in order to enjoy most or all of his vacations without working.
60 million a year as a "stress-free" school teacher in the States? Please enlighten us as to where this holy grail of teaching exists (I come from a family of public school teachers, and while you may find yourself earning that kind of money after many years of service in certain districts, the idea of a stress-free environment is very far from the truth).
Finally, the weak won doesn't factor into your life if you have no debts outside of Korea and plan on spending your life in Korea. I prefer the chronically low taxes and chronically inexpensive/good healthcare (compared to the States).
J7 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jackson7 wrote: |
12 hours per year is indeed correct, as it is the way many professors' contracts refer to their teaching responsibilities. This works out to either two semesters of 6 hours/week each, or one semester of 9 hours/week, followed by one semester of 3 hours/week. Some teaching-focused universities ask their tenure-track faculty to teach 15 or 18 hours per year.
The matter of tenure is VERY different here in Korea than it is in many western countries. If you keep up with your regularly required publications, which can be easy to do because of all the domestic publishing opportunities, tenure can be almost a foregone conclusion when you sign onto the tenure-track position. In the States, I recently read an article showing that less than 30% of tenure-track academics pass their review.
Depending on how much of your teaching load is composed of courses you have already developed materials for and taught before, and how many students you are supervising, it's not unreasonable at all to think that one could keep up with his research during the school semesters in order to enjoy most or all of his vacations without working.
60 million a year as a "stress-free" school teacher in the States? Please enlighten us as to where this holy grail of teaching exists (I come from a family of public school teachers, and while you may find yourself earning that kind of money after many years of service in certain districts, the idea of a stress-free environment is very far from the truth).
Finally, the weak won doesn't factor into your life if you have no debts outside of Korea and plan on spending your life in Korea. I prefer the chronically low taxes and chronically inexpensive/good healthcare (compared to the States).
J7 |
No one said public school teaching was stress free. But tenure is easy to get and then you've got a job for life. Why go the straw man route?
Depending on where you are teaching in the U.S., 60 million a year is certainly doable with 5-10 years of experience, in less time with an MA, and without a PhD, publishing, etc.
Yes, taxes are low in Korea, but healthcare ain't all that cheap once you're making 60 million, and it ain't all that good. A public school teacher in the U.S. would have free to relatively cheap medical insurance that covered much more than Korean insurance does. I'm speaking from personal experience with both.
And if you're teaching in Seoul, it would be relatively easy to have a lower cost of living working as a public school teacher in the U.S.
As for publishing, not all universities/departments are going to accept domestic publications and are even picky about which international ones they accept. Domestic publications don't help them in the international rankings.
You didn't mention administrative duties, which all the foreign tenure-track faculty I know, a small sample admittedly, say is quite time consuming.
BTW, are you expected to contribute regularly to the university you work at?
Then there's the matter of the limited number of tenure track positions available to foreigners. There are some, again mostly for the international rankings, but not many.
It's a good gig no doubt, especially for Korea, but there's more to it than some would have you believe. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| atwood wrote: |
[
No one said public school teaching was stress free. But tenure is easy to get and then you've got a job for life. Why go the straw man route?
. |
Tenure doesn't grant you a job for life.
And this is true both at high schools and universities across the U.S. Sure it's harder to get fired/cut...but it does happen.
For example in Louisiana schools
http://theadvocate.com/home/492228-79/story.html
| Quote: |
| Since 1979, about 13 tenured teachers per year were fired out of thousands evaluated through 2009-10. |
As for universities.
https://www.nea.org/home/33067.htm
| Quote: |
MYTH:
Tenure is a lifetime job guarantee.
REALITY:
Tenure is simply a right to due process; it means that a college or university cannot fire a tenured professor without presenting evidence that the professor is incompetent or behaves unprofessionally or that an academic department needs to be closed or the school is in serious financial difficulty. Nationally, about 2 percent of tenured faculty are dismissed in a typical year.
If it is difficult --- purposely difficult --- to fire a tenured professor, it's also very hard to become one. The probationary period averages three years for community colleges and seven years at four-year colleges. This is a period of employment insecurity almost unique among U.S. professions. People denied tenure at the end of this time lose their jobs; tenure is an "up-or-out" process.
During the probationary period, almost all colleges can choose not to renew faculty contracts and terminate faculty without any reason or cause. Throughout this time, senior professors and administrators evaluate the work of new faculty-teaching, research and service before deciding whether or not to recommend tenure. The most recent survey of American faculty shows that, in a typical year, about one in five probationary faculty members was denied tenure and lost his or her job. |
As we see about 20% annually don't make the cut.
(bolding mine) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
[
No one said public school teaching was stress free. But tenure is easy to get and then you've got a job for life. Why go the straw man route?
. |
Tenure doesn't grant you a job for life.
And this is true both at high schools and universities across the U.S. Sure it's harder to get fired/cut...but it does happen.
For example in Louisiana schools
http://theadvocate.com/home/492228-79/story.html
| Quote: |
| Since 1979, about 13 tenured teachers per year were fired out of thousands evaluated through 2009-10. |
As for universities.
https://www.nea.org/home/33067.htm
| Quote: |
MYTH:
Tenure is a lifetime job guarantee.
REALITY:
Tenure is simply a right to due process; it means that a college or university cannot fire a tenured professor without presenting evidence that the professor is incompetent or behaves unprofessionally or that an academic department needs to be closed or the school is in serious financial difficulty. Nationally, about 2 percent of tenured faculty are dismissed in a typical year.
If it is difficult --- purposely difficult --- to fire a tenured professor, it's also very hard to become one. The probationary period averages three years for community colleges and seven years at four-year colleges. This is a period of employment insecurity almost unique among U.S. professions. People denied tenure at the end of this time lose their jobs; tenure is an "up-or-out" process.
During the probationary period, almost all colleges can choose not to renew faculty contracts and terminate faculty without any reason or cause. Throughout this time, senior professors and administrators evaluate the work of new faculty-teaching, research and service before deciding whether or not to recommend tenure. The most recent survey of American faculty shows that, in a typical year, about one in five probationary faculty members was denied tenure and lost his or her job. |
As we see about 20% annually don't make the cut.
(bolding mine) |
I was speaking only about public school teachers. Since only between one and two percent received less than satisfactory evaluations in the example you give, I'd say that anyone who is at all making an effort to teach is guaranteed a position.
And that's one state out of 50. How many have similar evaluation programs and/or tenure systems?
As for tenure at a university, as it says, it is exceedingly difficult to lose tenure. Look how hard it was to fire Ward Churchill. The two percent losing their jobs may well be due to budget cuts rather than being fired.
When comparing, don't forget that Korean professors who lose a class due to low enrollment can lose a big chunk of their salary. I know one professor caught in such a predicament who had to pull his kids out of international school. And with more and more students opting for "honey lectures," it's tougher for classes mediated in English and of course for professors who are demanding. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
misher
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Based on what I experienced there are 3 kinds of uni positions in Korea.
1) the 2.5 million a month for 12 hours a week like at Hongik Dae. The workload is pretty light and you won't work more than 20-25 hours a week. Vacation will also be anywhere from 12-20 weeks.
These jobs attract people who want to coast and enjoy their vacations. Professional development is pretty minimal thpugh and your base pay won't increase much but hey if you want to live your life capped at $3000 a month go for it.
2) the unigwon job. Pretty much just a hagwon job. Hours are 20+ a week plus extras. Vacation is maybe 4-6 weeks which still isn't bad. Like 1 you're still a hagwon teacher though.
3) the actual lecturer job like the one Patrick says. 9-12 contact hours, publishing requirements, office hours, admin work etc. yeah they will pay more than the hongik type job but you will work for it. Easy a 35+ hour work week and the stress of publishing or perishing. Wanna enjoy that 2 month summer break? You'll be stressing out about your next paper guaranteed. Also expected is that you are working towards your PhD or that you have one already. All that work and education for under $50,000 a year? Yes yes I know people don't go into teaching or academia for the money (there is none) but the pay doesn't justify the amount of work and stress unless you're just crazy about reading and writing about TESOL and classroom practices. Yawn.
Most of the uni jobs are 1 and 2 with the number of category 1 type jobs declining as more people get online MA TESOLs with ease.
The type 3 jobs you don't see or hear about because yes, as Patrick says they are filled through referral etc. however another reason is because these jobs are few and far between in the first place. TESOL is just way too soft of an academic field ( in comparison to fields like engineering/sciences etc) and universities aren't going to shell out huge sums to get tenured TESOL PhD holders to teach uni ESL.
I say get a PhD in TESOL if that is your passion, but what a complete waste of TIME (takes 5 years away from you) if your goal in life is to teach uni esl in Korea. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jackson7
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Location: Kim Jong Il's Future Fireball
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You're comparing apples and oranges with these statistics. Korean hiring and tenure granting practices are very, very different from those used in American institutions. Many of my friends at work are Korean professors around the 4- to 7-year mark of their current positions, and our frequent conversations regarding tenure requirements have varied greatly from the same conversations I've had with my father, now a retired professor from America.
Here's some actual info:
http://en.knu.ac.kr/02_academics/academics03.html
For those that don't know, 400% equates to publishing 4 single-authro papers, which is only one per year during the probationary period at this university (but it would be best to shoot for 480% or 560%, per the further graded requirements listed). These are to be in journals of "domestic repute," so journals such as those published by KATE, MEESO, or ALAK would satisfy this requirement.
My Korean colleagues say that they often "share" their work with another professor, as a two-author work is worth 70% each, so these two professors could earn 140% each for their "collaboration" on these two works, likely splitting first-author honors.
Another factor of note is the Korean language requirement, but if you're choosing to live and research in Korea for the long term, you're likely proficient at least at TOPIK level 3.
J7 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
