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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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 Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:28 am Post subject: For South Korea's old, a return to poverty |
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In a fast-paced nation famous for its high achievers and its big spending on private tutors and luxury goods, half of South Korea’s elderly are poor, the highest rate in the industrialized world.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/for-south-koreas-seniors-a-return-to-poverty-as-confucian-filial-piety-weakens/2014/01/20/19769cf2-7b85-11e3-97d3-b9925ce2c57b_story.html
In much of Asia, a powerful Confucian social contract has for centuries dictated that children care for their aging parents. But that filial piety is weakening as younger generations migrate to cities. The change is particularly noteworthy in South Korea, because it has accumulated wealth so quickly and its society is so notoriously cutthroat, with ruthless competition for the best test scores and more-prestigious jobs.
“It’s almost like people don’t have the psychological space to care for other people,” said Lee Sun-young, an administrator at a senior center in the Seodaemun district of Seoul.
Over the past 15 years, the percentage of children who think they should look after their parents has shrunk from 90 percent to 37 percent, according to government polls. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| In only a handful of countries does a sizable share of the public feel that the elderly bear the greatest responsibility for their own economic well-being. South Korea is the only country in which more than half (53%) assigns principal responsibility to the elderly. |
http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/01/30/chapter-1-global-public-opinion-on-aging/
So in other words, South Korea is the least Confucian country. That's a shocker, considering:
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| In the “mindset and values of Koreans 2013” survey by the Culture, Sports and Tourism Ministry, involving 2,537 people aged between 19 and 79, the respondents showed pride in cultural heritage (93.1%); the traditional costume hanbok and Korean food (92.7%); Confucian values, including loyalty and respect for the elderly (85.9%); and pop culture, including K-pop (81.5%). |
In response to the question 'Who Should Bear the Greatest Responsibility for the Elderly', only 10% said 'their families'.
Elderly Koreans are not being taken care of by their children. It really sucks. The United States- which incidentally voted double that amount- has a system in place to give money to the elderly through Social Security and Medicaid. The government helps out in a big way. (This is in addition to retirement benefits accrued during one's working career.) In Korea, a lot of elderly people are really hurting. (That's probably why the suicide rate is so high in the ROK.)
From the comments section:
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This was the US before Social Security, which is the single biggest driver to reducing senior poverty.
The change in South Korea has been so rapid that policy has not kept up with changing mores. The children of these seniors should be ashamed. They too will suffer when they get older, as the ties of Confucian obligation grow looser. South Korea is losing their sense of unity and humanity as they embrace western greed. "Gangnam-style" should be a parody, but it reflects the pursuit of riches and status, the need for labels and superficial posturing, over doing the right thing: taking care of the least of us. |
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metalhead
Joined: 18 May 2010
Location: Toilet
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| Impossible, because just as Korean parents love their children, so too do Koreans respect their elders. |
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Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| metalhead wrote: |
| Impossible, because just as Korean parents love their children, so too do Koreans respect their elders. |
Haha, oh the irony. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Smaller families really make it tough to support the elderly. When you can spread the costs out over 4-7 children it's very doable. But when it's just the oldest son, and he's a salary man forced to retire at 50 or so, how's he going to support his family and parents?
IMO this is a huge problem Korea is facing, and filial piety is not the answer. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Smaller families really make it tough to support the elderly. When you can spread the costs out over 4-7 children it's very doable. But when it's just the oldest son, and he's a salary man forced to retire at 50 or so, how's he going to support his family and parents? |
The fact that many of the elderly are completely insufferable is also a complicating factor. Korean households can largely afford to support the elderly, it's really not that expensive. The issue is that the elderly largely make them not want to do that. It's hard to justify paying to take care of an old man or woman when every word out of their mouth makes you want to never interact with them again. My mother in law has five children, for example, but none of them actually want to be in her presence for more than a few days, nor are they keen to piss away money on her given how she squanders it. Any one of her children could afford to support her alone, but none want to do it, because she makes it so painful. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Smaller families really make it tough to support the elderly. When you can spread the costs out over 4-7 children it's very doable. But when it's just the oldest son, and he's a salary man forced to retire at 50 or so, how's he going to support his family and parents? |
The fact that many of the elderly are completely insufferable is also a complicating factor. Korean households can largely afford to support the elderly, it's really not that expensive. The issue is that the elderly largely make them not want to do that. It's hard to justify paying to take care of an old man or woman when every word out of their mouth makes you want to never interact with them again. My mother in law has five children, for example, but none of them actually want to be in her presence for more than a few days, nor are they keen to piss away money on her given how she squanders it. Any one of her children could afford to support her alone, but none want to do it, because she makes it so painful. |
Agreed, massive generation gap here. Someone who grew up before the 80's might as well grown up 100 years ago by North American standards.... when showing ankle was scandalous. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Smaller families really make it tough to support the elderly. |
50 years ago the birthrate was high, though. Now it is low.
| jvalmer wrote: |
| Agreed, massive generation gap here. |
So what? That doesn't give children the right to abandon their parents. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| Agreed, massive generation gap here. |
So what? That doesn't give children the right to abandon their parents. |
There is no 'right' for the old to be taken care of by their children. Although it is the decent thing to do, but parents should not expect anything. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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They gave so much to their children with the expectation their children would return the favor.
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| Even those who had good jobs have fallen back into poverty because they spent heavily on education for their children and saved little money, figuring their kids would provide the care they’d need as seniors. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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The treatment parents receive from their children is the logical conclusion of their own parenting. If a parent feels their children have abandoned them, rather than suggesting that children don't have "the right to abandon their parents," it would be better to ask why it's happening in the first place. Ultimately, children are not their parents slaves; the only true obligations they have are obligations of the heart. If an old person wants to not only hang about and heap stress and abuse upon their descendants but be paid for it, then no one is obliged to tolerate it.
If your retirement plan is to rely upon your children, you had best be sure to raise your children in such a fashion that they will want to play the role you're expecting them to play. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Smaller families really make it tough to support the elderly. When you can spread the costs out over 4-7 children it's very doable. But when it's just the oldest son, and he's a salary man forced to retire at 50 or so, how's he going to support his family and parents? |
The fact that many of the elderly are completely insufferable is also a complicating factor. Korean households can largely afford to support the elderly, it's really not that expensive. The issue is that the elderly largely make them not want to do that. It's hard to justify paying to take care of an old man or woman when every word out of their mouth makes you want to never interact with them again. My mother in law has five children, for example, but none of them actually want to be in her presence for more than a few days, nor are they keen to piss away money on her given how she squanders it. Any one of her children could afford to support her alone, but none want to do it, because she makes it so painful. |
Do you really believe all the elderly are like that? Seems highly unlikely.
As for affording it, once their health begins to deteriorate, it can become expensive. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
The treatment parents receive from their children is the logical conclusion of their own parenting. If a parent feels their children have abandoned them, rather than suggesting that children don't have "the right to abandon their parents," it would be better to ask why it's happening in the first place. Ultimately, children are not their parents slaves; the only true obligations they have are obligations of the heart. If an old person wants to not only hang about and heap stress and abuse upon their descendants but be paid for it, then no one is obliged to tolerate it.
If your retirement plan is to rely upon your children, you had best be sure to raise your children in such a fashion that they will want to play the role you're expecting them to play. |
If only life were so simple.
I think most Koreans do their best, which is of course relative, to treat their children in a way that the children will repay. That is one of the main reasons to spend so much on their education and to, from a Western perspective, spoil their children at every opportunity. They're binding them to the family.
Plus they get all this in ethics classes in school and the government propaganda regarding filial piety.
Again, not every old person in Korea is an asshat, at least by Korean standards. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Do you really believe all the elderly are like that? |
Not all, but many. Enough to noticeably influence nation-wide outcomes.
| atwood wrote: |
| As for affording it, once their health begins to deteriorate, it can become expensive. |
Once someone's health seriously begins to deteriorate, it's over. When my grandparents health began to seriously deterioriate, they realize their time was finished and let go gracefully. They were wise.
| atwood wrote: |
| I think most Koreans do their best, which is of course relative, to treat their children in a way that the children will repay. |
An effort can be best judged by its outcome. Some Koreans are very devoted to their parents and pamper them, while others want little if anything to do with them. If you wish to a priori dismiss personal responsibility with regards to those results, I can't stop you, but I've seen it unfold first hand. Sure, here and there an individual might selfishly spit upon an otherwise wonderful parent and turn them out into the cold in a fit of sociopathic self-interest, but extrapolated across an entire country such people will be exceptions. Most parents get the treatment they earned from their children, and Korea has some limited social progams for elderly people who don't have any surviving children (or whose children are themselves extremely poor). |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Do you really believe all the elderly are like that? |
Not all, but many. Enough to noticeably influence nation-wide outcomes.
| atwood wrote: |
| As for affording it, once their health begins to deteriorate, it can become expensive. |
Once someone's health seriously begins to deteriorate, it's over. When my grandparents health began to seriously deterioriate, they realize their time was finished and let go gracefully. They were wise.
| atwood wrote: |
| I think most Koreans do their best, which is of course relative, to treat their children in a way that the children will repay. |
An effort can be best judged by its outcome. Some Koreans are very devoted to their parents and pamper them, while others want little if anything to do with them. If you wish to a priori dismiss personal responsibility with regards to those results, I can't stop you, but I've seen it unfold first hand. Sure, here and there an individual might selfishly spit upon an otherwise wonderful parent and turn them out into the cold in a fit of sociopathic self-interest, but extrapolated across an entire country such people will be exceptions. Most parents get the treatment they earned from their children, and Korea has some limited social progams for elderly people who don't have any surviving children (or whose children are themselves extremely poor). |
Can you substantiate your beliefs in any way beyond your individual experience? It seems quite a leap from one bad actor to saying thousands of parents are impossible to live with. And then extrapolating that a large majority of parents who have little or no support from their children have no one but themselves to blame.
I'm not dismissing personal responsibility, but there's a lot more to it than that. And again where do you get evidence for your generalizations?
Korea's social programs are very limited and to be eligible for at least some you have to prove that your children are unable to support you, which is a very shameful thing in Korea. Which is why I believe this is a huge problem that will only get better until Korea can build a true safety net.
Why does your grandparents decision to "go gracefully" seem wise to you? Can you explain more about how they died? How does one when their time is up? |
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