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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| mayorhaggar wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
The current jargon for what happens in Asia is "incremental innovation," which is a fancy way of saying we take someone else's work and change it a little around the edges. It's a step up from benchmarking, which is a fancy way of saying we copied it from someone else.
Either way, the innovation happening in Asia is dependent on that of the West. I would exclude Japan, for obvious reasons, and because Japan itself doesn't really see itself as a part of Asia. |
Japan notoriously got to where it is by copying Western inventions and making them better and/or cheaper. And now South Korea's Chaebol Inc. (and China) are now copying Japan. Japan's at a weird plateau now where their products are respected but they aren't really making anything particularly innovative. They face the same problems as Korea/China where innovation is difficult to get approved by the old men who run everything, and in general they're resistant to change. And anyone who's been to Japan has probably been struck at how untechnologically savvy everyday Japan is. It's hard just to find an ATM, especially one that accepts foreign cards--something you can find in any hick town in Europe or North America. South Korea isn't a whole lot better but stuff like wi-fi in the subway is pretty decent. It's a bit of a sham because it's easy for Korea to throw stuff like wi-fi routers onto trains and fancy touchscreen ticket kiosks (stuff you rarely see in the US) because it's a straightforward and undisruptive modification to infrastructure that doesn't really cause a major change. So it's nice that we can use our ipads on the subway, but there's still garbage everywhere in the streets and all the buildings are crumbling.
| Steelrails wrote: |
What I find odd is when it comes to positives regarding "The West", no one has a problem including America. However, when it comes to negatives, suddenly everyone objects to it. If you want to take the good, you have to take the bad. If you want to hold up The Apollo Program as an example of Western innovation and invention, then you have to take Jim Crow and race-based chattel slavery as examples of Western barbarism. You want to talk about the greatness of .com? You have to take America's crime and guns as well. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes |
Yes, Japan is a fast follower too. But don't forget they manufactured products, and still do, that were category leaders such as Sony TVs. Then they came up with the Walkman, etc.
As for autos, it was the Japanese who made front wheel drive ubiquitous. Sure, they didn't invent it, but they made it work. That's really just the tip of the iceberg regarding automobiles. And they are currently the leaders in hybrids and electric cars.
They've innovated in other fields as well. For, example the MoMA was designed by a Japanese architect. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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That's right. That this is news to you is unsurprising.
I wouldn't lump Japan into the incremental innovation camp because of the larger innovation that has come out of Japan.
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I know SOME Japanese view themselves as being special and separate. Just as some Koreans consider themselves some magical peninsula outside of Asia. That doesn't mean their culture isn't extensively drawn from Asia's and deeply influenced by it. I don't agree with that assessment. I think such arguments are typically made by people with agendas wanting to see themselves as special OR people who want to exclude a country from a group because it doesn't support their claims.
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| You started this thread and now you're trying to derail it? You just can't help yourself, can you, blind rabbit? |
atwood, it seems that what constitutes 'derailing' is that I don't blindly accept everything you say and agree with it. Objecting to some of your nonsense claims is somehow 'derailing'. If you can't handle discussing things like an adult and are unable to accept anyone disagreeing with you without resorting to insults, then please leave.
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No one has EVER said that.
What people have said is that when you start picking out examples of things that happen exclusively in the USA and then use "The West", as though what happens in American society happens in Britain or Australia or Denmark.
People rightfully call you out on using the blanket term "The West", when in fact you are talking only about the US. |
What I find odd is when it comes to positives regarding "The West", no one has a problem including America. However, when it comes to negatives, suddenly everyone objects to it. If you want to take the good, you have to take the bad. If you want to hold up The Apollo Program as an example of Western innovation and invention, then you have to take Jim Crow and race-based chattel slavery as examples of Western barbarism. You want to talk about the greatness of .com? You have to take America's crime and guns as well. |
You don't KNOW anything. That's painfully obvious.
Just as England often views itself as separate from Europe, Japan does the same vis a vis Asia. It's not about what you think about it, it's what they think about it. You just don't seem to ever get it, do you blind rabbit?
Go back to derailing, casey jones: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2014/02/11/csx-train-derails-downtown.html |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| salutbonjour wrote: |
| radcon wrote: |
| You know this argument is coming so let me be the 1st " If Korea is so innovative why hasn't any Korean won a Nobel prize (other than peace)? |
Regardless of how innovative Korea is or isn't, most science Nobel prizes are for past work which has had a significant impact. 2013 physics prize was awarded to Peter Higgs for theory he formulated in the 60's. It is thus a poor indicator for current innovation levels.
Second, Nobel awards only one person and for things that are unrelated to practical innovation. I've never seen string theory being applied to anything but doing more experiments, no offense to Dr. Higgs who is by all metrics an amazing researchers. |
Somehow, I failed to notice you making a third obviously wrong statement. Nobel Prizes can be shared by up to three different people. In fact, Peter Higgs shared the prize with Francois Englert. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
Just as England often views itself as separate from Europe, Japan does the same vis a vis Asia. It's not about what you think about it, it's what they think about it. You just don't seem to ever get it, do you blind rabbit?
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While they may consider themselves separate, I think most historians would group England within "Europe" and point to how their history and culture is overwhelmingly tied to Europe.
Sorry, just because some Jingoistic and exceptionalist Englishmen consider themselves as separate from Europe, doesn't make it so in the historical and cultural context.
| Quote: |
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes |
Well, the example I gave was related to broader arguments about the "greatness" of the West or its record of tolerance and so on. There, I think its applicable. In this case, the point was to show how people tend to consider America as part of the West when it suits them, but exclude it when it doesn't support their arguments. Likewise with Japan, and apparently now, England. The point isn't "And you are lynching...", the point is the inconsistent and contradictory nature of such assertions. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Just as England often views itself as separate from Europe, Japan does the same vis a vis Asia. It's not about what you think about it, it's what they think about it. You just don't seem to ever get it, do you blind rabbit?
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While they may consider themselves separate, I think most historians would group England within "Europe" and point to how their history and culture is overwhelmingly tied to Europe.
Sorry, just because some Jingoistic and exceptionalist Englishmen consider themselves as separate from Europe, doesn't make it so in the historical and cultural context.
| Quote: |
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes |
Well, the example I gave was related to broader arguments about the "greatness" of the West or its record of tolerance and so on. There, I think its applicable. In this case, the point was to show how people tend to consider America as part of the West when it suits them, but exclude it when it doesn't support their arguments. Likewise with Japan, and apparently now, England. The point isn't "And you are lynching...", the point is the inconsistent and contradictory nature of such assertions. |
Again with the "I thinks." In other words, you don't KNOW.
Besides which, I posted nothing about what others think, only what the English and Japanese think.
You're still asleep at the switch, casey.
You're overweening pride in having read a few history books would probably be a better fit for a historical forum. Why don't you go find one?
Better yet, why don't you nut up and do what it takes to get certified as a history teacher and go do that. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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Again with the "I thinks." In other words, you don't KNOW.
Besides which, I posted nothing about what others think, only what the English and Japanese think.
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Incredible. Gets on me for using the phrase "I think" and states that I don't know. Then goes on to say what all the English and Japanese think as if he knows. He also claims he posted nothing about what others think. |
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cabeza
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Well, the example I gave was related to broader arguments about the "greatness" of the West or its record of tolerance and so on. There, I think its applicable. In this case, the point was to show how people tend to consider America as part of the West when it suits them, but exclude it when it doesn't support their arguments. Likewise with Japan, and apparently now, England. The point isn't "And you are lynching...", the point is the inconsistent and contradictory nature of such assertions. |
No, Steelrails. No.
You are either stupid are being dickish intentionally. I know you aren't the former, so it must be the latter.
No one would ever deny that the USA is part of the West.
But saying what happens in the US can be applied to all of Western Civilization.....that's what people balk at.
Just like saying "All asians are xyz", would be stupid, if you were using exclusively Chinese examples.
The West is conceptually a massive, ill-defined thing and so it's always going to be hard to talk about it without someone disagreeing.
Jim Crow: American, but anyone with a modicum of historical knowledge knows that it's not as simple as saying "Oh that's a purely American thing". Bad shit in regards to race happened/s everywhere. Judeo-christian (western?) values fed into it somewhat.
.com: Wasn't the internet originally invented by a British guy?
The Apollo program: Scientific breakthroughs and discoveries since the enlightenment (and before) throughout the world (especially Europe), a lot of help from German Rocket scientists, all brought together.
So those good and bad things that we largely identify as American, for better or worse, can be seen as an amalgumation of "Westernism" in one form or another.
Gun violence: When talking about something like this you CAN say "hey don't throw The West under the bus", becuase mass gun violence on the scale we see in the US, is a pretty uniquely American thing.
You see? |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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Again with the "I thinks." In other words, you don't KNOW.
Besides which, I posted nothing about what others think, only what the English and Japanese think.
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Incredible. Gets on me for using the phrase "I think" and states that I don't know. Then goes on to say what all the English and Japanese think as if he knows. He also claims he posted nothing about what others think. |
Never said what ALL the English and Japanese think, but what I posted is well documented.
No, you didn't post about what the English and Japanese think. You posted about what you claimed "most historians" thought. Care to name a dozen or so on the subject?
You always end up lying. That's why they have to put down egg-sucking dogs. Once they start, they just can't help themselves. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:12 am Post subject: |
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The Koreans have only done what all countries do, that is learn and improve.
The hypocrisy of americans never ceases to amaze. During their industrilaization they copied, borrowed, stole and bought many technologies from Britain. There were cases of British innovations being memorized by american visitors and then rebuilt bolt by bolt back in the US.
The so-called Second Industrial Revolution, which did so much for america's global rise, was also based largely on advancements that began in Britain.
The countries of Asia are simply following in the footsteps of a well worn path. Identify the global leader, see what they do, copy it and then find a way to do it better/cheaper. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
The Koreans have only done what all countries do, that is learn and improve.
The hypocrisy of americans never ceases to amaze. During their industrilaization they copied, borrowed, stole and bought many technologies from Britain. There were cases of British innovations being memorized by american visitors and then rebuilt bolt by bolt back in the US.
The so-called Second Industrial Revolution, which did so much for america's global rise, was also based largely on advancements that began in Britain.
The countries of Asia are simply following in the footsteps of a well worn path. Identify the global leader, see what they do, copy it and then find a way to do it better/cheaper. |
What a dummy Thomas Edison was for doing all those experiments. He should have just taken a sea cruise and found out all he needed to know in London. |
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Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
The Koreans have only done what all countries do, that is learn and improve.
The hypocrisy of americans never ceases to amaze. During their industrilaization they copied, borrowed, stole and bought many technologies from Britain. There were cases of British innovations being memorized by american visitors and then rebuilt bolt by bolt back in the US.
The so-called Second Industrial Revolution, which did so much for america's global rise, was also based largely on advancements that began in Britain.
The countries of Asia are simply following in the footsteps of a well worn path. Identify the global leader, see what they do, copy it and then find a way to do it better/cheaper. |
What a dummy Thomas Edison was for doing all those experiments. He should have just taken a sea cruise and found out all he needed to know in London. |
Benjamin Franklin too. However, guys, let's stop bickering when we know that the true inventors of a great deal of modern civilization were the ancient Greeks. Yes, even electricity. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
The Koreans have only done what all countries do, that is learn and improve.
The hypocrisy of americans never ceases to amaze. During their industrilaization they copied, borrowed, stole and bought many technologies from Britain. There were cases of British innovations being memorized by american visitors and then rebuilt bolt by bolt back in the US.
The so-called Second Industrial Revolution, which did so much for america's global rise, was also based largely on advancements that began in Britain.
The countries of Asia are simply following in the footsteps of a well worn path. Identify the global leader, see what they do, copy it and then find a way to do it better/cheaper. |
What a dummy Thomas Edison was for doing all those experiments. He should have just taken a sea cruise and found out all he needed to know in London. |
You have chosen a guy born over 100 years after the Industrial Revolution in England to prove what exactly?
He was a great inventor and I never said you had none, but it is funny you chose him considering that his most famous 'invention' was more of an Asian style incremental evolution.
As I said before he like many americans of the time learnt and improved on a technology that had already been invented in Britain and made it better and cheaper. That is exactly what Chinese and Koreans are doing to americans today. |
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Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
The Koreans have only done what all countries do, that is learn and improve.
The hypocrisy of americans never ceases to amaze. During their industrilaization they copied, borrowed, stole and bought many technologies from Britain. There were cases of British innovations being memorized by american visitors and then rebuilt bolt by bolt back in the US.
The so-called Second Industrial Revolution, which did so much for america's global rise, was also based largely on advancements that began in Britain.
The countries of Asia are simply following in the footsteps of a well worn path. Identify the global leader, see what they do, copy it and then find a way to do it better/cheaper. |
What a dummy Thomas Edison was for doing all those experiments. He should have just taken a sea cruise and found out all he needed to know in London. |
You have chosen a guy born over 100 years after the Industrial Revolution in England to prove what exactly?
He was a great inventor and I never said you had none, but it is funny you chose him considering that his most famous 'invention' was more of an Asian style incremental evolution.
As I said before he like many americans of the time learnt and improved on a technology that had already been invented in Britain and made it better and cheaper. That is exactly what Chinese and Koreans are doing to americans today. |
Did you miss the part about the Greeks? |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| Stain wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
The Koreans have only done what all countries do, that is learn and improve.
The hypocrisy of americans never ceases to amaze. During their industrilaization they copied, borrowed, stole and bought many technologies from Britain. There were cases of British innovations being memorized by american visitors and then rebuilt bolt by bolt back in the US.
The so-called Second Industrial Revolution, which did so much for america's global rise, was also based largely on advancements that began in Britain.
The countries of Asia are simply following in the footsteps of a well worn path. Identify the global leader, see what they do, copy it and then find a way to do it better/cheaper. |
What a dummy Thomas Edison was for doing all those experiments. He should have just taken a sea cruise and found out all he needed to know in London. |
Benjamin Franklin too. However, guys, let's stop bickering when we know that the true inventors of a great deal of modern civilization were the ancient Greeks. Yes, even electricity. |
I suppose it would be culturally insensitive to try and claim him based on his 70 years as a British subject.
The Ancient Greeks were indeed amazing. Its weird to think that they were also responsible, in an indirect way, for the explosion of learning that occured in Europe centuries after their fall to Rome. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| Stain wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
The Koreans have only done what all countries do, that is learn and improve.
The hypocrisy of americans never ceases to amaze. During their industrilaization they copied, borrowed, stole and bought many technologies from Britain. There were cases of British innovations being memorized by american visitors and then rebuilt bolt by bolt back in the US.
The so-called Second Industrial Revolution, which did so much for america's global rise, was also based largely on advancements that began in Britain.
The countries of Asia are simply following in the footsteps of a well worn path. Identify the global leader, see what they do, copy it and then find a way to do it better/cheaper. |
What a dummy Thomas Edison was for doing all those experiments. He should have just taken a sea cruise and found out all he needed to know in London. |
You have chosen a guy born over 100 years after the Industrial Revolution in England to prove what exactly?
He was a great inventor and I never said you had none, but it is funny you chose him considering that his most famous 'invention' was more of an Asian style incremental evolution.
As I said before he like many americans of the time learnt and improved on a technology that had already been invented in Britain and made it better and cheaper. That is exactly what Chinese and Koreans are doing to americans today. |
Did you miss the part about the Greeks? |
Everyone owes a lot to the greeks, but it is not the same as sailing across the ocean seeing how someone else builds a machine and then copying it back home.
The Industrial Revolution was just that, a revolution. It changed human civilization forever and the world played catch up for over a century and a half, including americans. That is why I say stop complaining about the Chinese and Koreans who are just continuing the trend with the great innovator of today, the US. |
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