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TDC troll
Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Location: TDC
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 Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:01 pm Post subject: Grammar Q |
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Hi guys , I need some help with a grammar question.
This sentence is in our middle school's grammar book .
It just doesn't seem right to me.
The unit is about participles .
This sentence : Please pick up the books fallen on the ground .
I don't think that fallen can be used by itself like that ?
What do you think ??????? |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar Q |
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| TDC troll wrote: |
Hi guys , I need some help with a grammar question.
This sentence is in our middle school's grammar book .
It just doesn't seem right to me.
The unit is about participles .
This sentence : Please pick up the books fallen on the ground .
I don't think that fallen can be used by itself like that ?
What do you think ??????? |
Reduced Relative Clauses:
The window broken last night will cost 10 dollars to replace
= The window that was broken last night......
In this case, the reduced relative clause is fine because the subordinate clause is a passive sentence ("the window was broken")
In you example, however:
"Please pick up the books fallen on the ground"
= Please pick up the books that have fallen on the ground
In this case, the subordinate clause is present perfect, and therefore cannot be reduced like in your example. It is incorrect. |
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TDC troll
Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Location: TDC
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| Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks , Trans . |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Reduced Relative Clauses:
The window broken last night will cost 10 dollars to replace
= The window that was broken last night......
In this case, the reduced relative clause is fine because the subordinate clause is a passive sentence ("the window was broken")
In you example, however:
"Please pick up the books fallen on the ground"
= Please pick up the books that have fallen on the ground
In this case, the subordinate clause is present perfect, and therefore cannot be reduced like in your example. It is incorrect. |
I'm not sure it's about tense, I think it's a transitive/intransitive issue.
e.g. you could use the present perfect passive to say
'Please pick up the books that have been thrown on the ground'
this could be changed to
'Please pick up the books thrown on the ground' = correct
However since 'fall' is intransitive it doesn't work.
Another example would be
That's the photo of the man who has been killed in the accident.' = That's the photo of the man killed in the accident. (transitive) and correct
That's the photo of the man who has died in the accident' = That's the photo of the man died in the accident (intransitive) and wrong. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:15 am Post subject: |
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"Please pick up the books that have been thrown on the ground" is still passive though, and thus correct when reduced.
Of course, the subject of a passive sentence has to be the object of the active version, and thus the verb involved must necessarily be transitive for a passive to exist in the first place, so we are both arguing the same thing.
Passive sentences aren't the only type of sentences that can be reduced, of course, lest anyone thinks that's what I'm arguing. |
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Rockhard
Joined: 11 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:34 am Post subject: |
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I'm not exactly sure why, but the sentence in question is wrong.
"books thrown on the ground" sounds right, "books fallen are the ground does not".
I guess this trick only works when the noun is an object of the verb, probably because in passive voice the verb is actually an adjective.
For example, "I have thrown" - In this sentence thrown is the main verb with have acting as a tense modifier.
"I was thrown" - In this sentence "to be" is the main verb with "thrown" acting as a quasi-adjective.
In that way, "thrown on the ground" can be viewed as simply an adjective phrase without a verb. "fallen on the ground" doesn't work because "to fall" is an action performed by the subject so it's not an adjective but an incomplete verb.
Well, at least, that's my sense of it. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Please pick up the books that have been thrown on the ground" is still passive though, and thus correct when reduced.
Of course, the subject of a passive sentence has to be the object of the active version, and thus the verb involved must necessarily be transitive for a passive to exist in the first place, so we are both arguing the same thing.
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True I was just questioning your reference to present perfect tense.
| Quote: |
I guess this trick only works when the noun is an object of the verb, probably because in passive voice the verb is actually an adjective.
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It works with the present participle though e.g.
'Please pick up the books falling on the ground' |
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Rockhard
Joined: 11 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
It works with the present participle though e.g.
'Please pick up the books falling on the ground' |
But gerunds (verbs + ing) can be adjectives, as well as nouns, and verbs.
She is skiing. (verb)
Skiing is fun. (noun)
Did you see the skiing elephant? (adjective).
Without the tense modifier "is", the brain interprets an "ing" word as an adjective, so the rule still works, but thanks for trying to find to challenge it as I'm just guessing myself. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Rockhard wrote: |
| I guess this trick only works when the noun is an object of the verb, probably because in passive voice the verb is actually an adjective. |
It works when the copula ("to be") is involved.
I met my friend, who is a lawyer, in Jongno.
I met my friend, a lawyer, in Jongno.
My friend, who is worried about failing, has started to spend more time at the library.
My friend, worried about failing, has started to spend more time at the library.
The books that are lying on the floor are mine.
The books lying on the floor are mine.
The window that was broken yesterday will be fixed tomorrow.
The window broken yesterday will be fixed tomorrow.
Personally, though it is technically possible, I wouldn't use
"Please pick up the books thrown on the floor"
because my impression is that the reduced clause needs to have some connotation of a continuing state (i.e., in the examples above, my friend continues to be a lawyer, my friend is in a constant state of worry, the books were continuing to lay on the floor, the window remains broken at the time of speaking), whereas in this example, the act of throwing was a single, once-off action. At the time of speaking they were no longer being thrown.
You could say something like "The book thrown around the cafeteria yesterday was from the library" because you are describing an ongoing action.....I think. The reason why it needs to be an ongoing state is that when you reduce the relative clause, you are omitting any orientating information contained within the copula (mainly the tense), so for the reduced clause to work, the relationship between the two clauses needs to be clear and obvious.
Like with most of my grammar knowledge, I'm pretty much an inductive learner, looking at examples and trying to figure out the underlying rules. It's more fun that way. I could be wrong. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
Please pick up the books that have been thrown on the ground" is still passive though, and thus correct when reduced.
Of course, the subject of a passive sentence has to be the object of the active version, and thus the verb involved must necessarily be transitive for a passive to exist in the first place, so we are both arguing the same thing.
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True I was just questioning your reference to present perfect tense.
| Quote: |
I guess this trick only works when the noun is an object of the verb, probably because in passive voice the verb is actually an adjective.
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It works with the present participle though e.g.
'Please pick up the books falling on the ground' |
"have been thrown" sounds like too much, as if you are distinguishing them from books which have not recently been thrown on the ground (but are on the ground also). It paints an unrealistic picture.
"falling on the ground" sounds like there is a continuous stream of "willy wonka" like books falling.
I would stick with simple past. |
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