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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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 Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| wanderkind wrote: |
| wooden nickels wrote: |
Now for you folks out there crusading for the Babies Daddies (mama with 6 babies by 4 fathers) or daddy wants to only work or teach 30 hours a week (or avoid all work possible) with little motivation to prosper from your own sweat,  don't let the door hit you on your way out. |
...can you rephrase this? |
I work and make 900 won. Why can't I spend it as I please.
Another person works and makes 500 won.
Is it right that I shouldn't be allowed to spend my extra 400 won to benefit my family because the other person made less income than me?
2 homeless guys sitting on the park bench. One has a pair of shoes, the other doesn't. Should the guy who has a pair of shoes be ordered not to wear them because his neighbor doesn't have a pair? |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| Moving too much toward excessive Political Correctness and a Welfare Planet. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:15 am Post subject: |
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I work and make 900 won. Why can't I spend it as I please.
Another person works and makes 500 won.
Is it right that I shouldn't be allowed to spend my extra 400 won to benefit my family because the other person made less income than me?
2 homeless guys sitting on the park bench. One has a pair of shoes, the other doesn't. Should the guy who has a pair of shoes be ordered not to wear them because his neighbor doesn't have a pair? |
Yeah, I think as someone else pointed out, it's about making things fairer for the CHILDREN of the poor who haven't yet had the chance to reap the benefits of the capitalist system. |
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Rockhard
Joined: 11 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| wooden nickels wrote: |
| wanderkind wrote: |
| wooden nickels wrote: |
| Now for you folks out there crusading for the Babies Daddies (mama with 6 babies by 4 fathers) or daddy wants to only work or teach 30 hours a week (or avoid all work possible) with little motivation to prosper from your own sweat, don't let the door hit you on your way out. |
...can you rephrase this? |
I work and make 900 won. Why can't I spend it as I please.
Another person works and makes 500 won.
Is it right that I shouldn't be allowed to spend my extra 400 won to benefit my family because the other person made less income than me?
2 homeless guys sitting on the park bench. One has a pair of shoes, the other doesn't. Should the guy who has a pair of shoes be ordered not to wear them because his neighbor doesn't have a pair? |
That might be all well and good if we were all still farmers living off of equal plots of land in the wild west or hunter-gatherers surviving off of what we caught that day, but we live in a modern world where we are so interconnected it's impossible to separate completely what is of your creation alone. McDonald's CEO doesn't make millions a year because he makes millions of hamburgers. Rather minions make the hamburgers for him and he just happens to be at the top of hierarchical structure which pools resources denies the minions a vote in how it is used. None of us is truly independent anymore. We all rely on others to do work for us. So when we crap on those around us we are really crapping on ourselves. |
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newchamp
Joined: 09 Mar 2013
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| wooden nickels wrote: |
I have to go along with candybar on this one.
I have worked hard and put in long hours. My daughter will be continuing to get the best education I can provide for her.
Now for you folks out there crusading for the Babies Daddies (mama with 6 babies by 4 fathers) or daddy wants to only work or teach 30 hours a week (or avoid all work possible) with little motivation to prosper from your own sweat, don't let the door hit you on your way out. |
If you continually teach more than 30 hours a week without burning out, I'm guessing your classes aren't that great, and you don't prep or grade much.
A society won't be too happy if everyone HAS TO participate in your kind of lifestyle. Koreans waste too much effort on "education" that's purely for competition, and you're fitting right into the cycle. |
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SeoulNate
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Rockhard wrote: |
| SeoulNate wrote: |
| Rockhard wrote: |
| I don't know about you, but of all the bilingual people I've ever met, they either were born into a bilingual environment or mostly taught themselves. I've never met anyone who's learned a second language just by sitting in a classroom. If the student isn't doing a ton of studying on their own they aren't going to succeed. Not everyone is cut out for second language learning. It's a waste of resources to spend time on people who aren't committed to it. . |
Haven't met too many people from Northern/Eastern Europe, Russia, Singapore, India, South Africa, Quebec, Malaysia or a multitude of other places that do the vast majority of their L2/L3 learning at school?
Take the average university student from Korea and compare them to the average uni student from some equally affluent nation in Europe where English isnt the L1. Look at the spending disparity and wonder in awe how in the world the average Korean is as bad at English as they truly are. |
As if learning English for a French person was the equivalent of learning English for a Korean. You know, it's comments like these that really make me question how any of you completed university. English and French are practically dialects of each other, sharing 30%+ of their vocabulary, nearly identical grammar, and the same alphabet. It's not at all comparable. |
Just like Russian right? Or mandarin?
Come off it.
The reason that Koreans don't have a strong grasp over English has little to do with their motivation to learn, money they spend, or the time that they 'study'. It has to do with the fact that they study the wrong way (for language learning) and DONT STUDY ENGLISH, they study TEST PREP.
From your OP:
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| I've never met anyone who's learned a second language just by sitting in a classroom. |
That is just laughably absurd. Then you try and rebut it with "French is similar to English, so yeah". No shit Sherlock. Japanese is more similar to Korean and you dont see a multitude of people walking around that are bilingual in those two languages despite the fact that it would be a huge benefit to them as a large portion of their trade is with Japan.
The ways that Korean students study English, Korean teachers teach English and institutes in Korea deal with English are fundamentally wrong. Yes, there are effective ways and ineffective ways to learn an L2. Until those practices change, it doesn't matter how much money, time or effort Koreans throw at English learning - nothing will be accomplished. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| That is just laughably absurd. Then you try and rebut it with "French is similar to English, so yeah". No shit Sherlock. Japanese is more similar to Korean and you dont see a multitude of people walking around that are bilingual in those two languages despite the fact that it would be a huge benefit to them as a large portion of their trade is with Japan. |
And you don't see huge numbers of NETs from other countries speaking two languages at a high level unless they are of immediate immigrant descent.
Japanese has not been taught in Korean schools the way Spanish or French has back home. Some Koreans DO study Japanese and those that do are rather good at it.
You do know why Koreans first learned English, why they focused on memorization, and why it was so necessary, right? I want to hear your answer. I'll give you a hint- Look at sports day in elementary schools.
| Quote: |
| The ways that Korean students study English, Korean teachers teach English and institutes in Korea deal with English are fundamentally wrong. Yes, there are effective ways and ineffective ways to learn an L2. Until those practices change, it doesn't matter how much money, time or effort Koreans throw at English learning - nothing will be accomplished. |
Actually, if you look at data to base your opinions off of, rather than your generalizations and assumptions, you will note that Korea has the highest English Proficiency Index of any non-European, non-former British colony country in the world. That suggests that everyone in Korea- Koreans AND NETs are doing great at their jobs and in their classes when it comes to English. The fact is that English is incredibly challenging for someone whose primary language is Korean.
You can't compare people in France and their English to Koreans and English. I for one can pick up a French newspaper, despite having half a semester of French in 3rd grade, and kinda figure out whats going on. Some Fresh-into-Incheon NET could never do that with Korean. That should show the gap.
And again, if their education system is so bad at foreign language, and ours is so good, where are the legion of NET polyglots? Shouldn't we all be having basic conversations with each other in French or Spanish to keep our skills up? |
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Chia Pet
Joined: 23 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Korea has the highest English Proficiency Index of any non-European, non-former British colony country in the world. |
Interesting. But Wikipedia says:
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| participants in the tests are self-selected and must have access to the internet. This pushes the index towards the realm of an online survey rather than a statistically valid evaluation. |
So it's not a valid index. Even if it were, it wouldn't mean that teaching methods are efficient in most settings in Korea (or any other country), since kids and young adults spend so much time studying English here.
Last edited by Chia Pet on Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:14 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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SeoulNate
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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@Steelrails
Please learn to read.
I NEVER said that the system in the US/Canada/England or most- if not all- of the western-English speaking world is better. It is just as bad, if not worse for L1 speakers. For L2 speakers, its far better, but that's a different argument entirely as ESL and EFL are not even remotely comparable.
As you ignored my entire post and wrote:
| Quote: |
| you will note that Korea has the highest English Proficiency Index of any non-European, non-former British colony country in the world. |
THAT'S THE POINT! Korean should be comparing themselves to Russia and other northern European countries in regard to their English development. They spend FAR more money on English education than any of those countries with far worse results. Not to mention, who the hell are you comparing them to if you throw those out the window? China, Japan and.... a crap ton of countries with the GDP equaling about 10% of Korea?
Korea's English proficiency is flat out terrible. They shouldn't be sitting there thinking, "Huehue, we are better than China and Japan" (both of which spend less). They should be thinking, "how can we be better than Russia, Singapore, Malaysia, India, Finland, Iceland, Norway etc."
They spend the resources to be better. But they are not. That is the problem. It's also a solvable problem, but a HUGE change needs to come in the way that English is approached here. |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| newchamp wrote: |
| wooden nickels wrote: |
I have to go along with candybar on this one.
I have worked hard and put in long hours. My daughter will be continuing to get the best education I can provide for her.
Now for you folks out there crusading for the Babies Daddies (mama with 6 babies by 4 fathers) or daddy wants to only work or teach 30 hours a week (or avoid all work possible) with little motivation to prosper from your own sweat, don't let the door hit you on your way out. |
If you continually teach more than 30 hours a week without burning out, I'm guessing your classes aren't that great, and you don't prep or grade much.
A society won't be too happy if everyone HAS TO participate in your kind of lifestyle. Koreans waste too much effort on "education" that's purely for competition, and you're fitting right into the cycle. |
You have guessed wrong. I'm a certified teacher with a MA in foreign language education and a Degree in English. I've been developing my curriculum for close to 32 years. I now have tons of material to work with or simply polish up for a class. However, I do still continue to prep around 30 minutes for each class and put in about 10 hours per week grading and assessing the work of my students.
The mothers and students are happy with the results from the classes. In general, there have been highly noticeable improvements in test scores and general English improvement. |
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| candy bar wrote: |
| Stan Rogers wrote: |
"It also prohibits universities from giving entrance exam questions that are not included in the high school curriculum."
I totally agree with this decision. The system up to this point discriminated against the poor who can't afford to take the extra classes needed to get a higher score on the entrance exam. |
I disagree. The rich shouldn't be penalized for their success.
Why dumb down the system for the lazy slackers? If I work hard and put in extra hours so my kids can benefit from the fruits of my labor, and my kids do the same for their kids, I see no reason in being penalized for the efforts.
I don't have a problem with someone making more money than me and having the opportunity to pursue better things because of a higher income. Likewise, don't penalize me because of my higher income.
No, everyone shouldn't get a medal just for participating in the elementary track and field contest. Reward those who win! Let the lazy fat slackers go home empty handed with their self esteem damaged, and EAT CAKE, literally. |
I think the problem lies in the fact that by being from a wealthier family the child gains access to vital information (questions in the test), that the poorer child does not.
i.e. entrance exam questions that are not included in the high school curriculum.
This means that no matter how hard the poorer child studies, they will still be at a massive disadvantage. This would then increase the gap between the "haves" and the "have nots".
You then end up with a system where no matter how hard the poorer people try, they will never escape the poverty trap they have been born into.
By all means hire the best tutors for your child, and use any means necessary to give your child a head start. But when the questions of a test are discriminating between the poor and the wealthy, then there is a problem that needs to be addressed.
I, for one, am glad that the government has taken steps to remedy the situation. |
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Nester Noodlemon
Joined: 16 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| Public schools should eliminate the NETs and hogwons should cut the NETs salary to 900,000 won per month. This would help bring down the cost of education and make it more affordable for the poor kids. The NETs have had their chance. Now let us give the poor kids an opportunity. It's the only right thing to do. |
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Rockhard
Joined: 11 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:27 am Post subject: |
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| Nester Noodlemon wrote: |
| Public schools should eliminate the NETs and hogwons should cut the NETs salary to 900,000 won per month. This would help bring down the cost of education and make it more affordable for the poor kids. The NETs have had their chance. Now let us give the poor kids an opportunity. It's the only right thing to do. |
You won't have NETs at 900,000 a month so you are really just saying "ban hagwons". |
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Nester Noodlemon
Joined: 16 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| Rockhard wrote: |
| Nester Noodlemon wrote: |
| Public schools should eliminate the NETs and hogwons should cut the NETs salary to 900,000 won per month. This would help bring down the cost of education and make it more affordable for the poor kids. The NETs have had their chance. Now let us give the poor kids an opportunity. It's the only right thing to do. |
You won't have NETs at 900,000 a month so you are really just saying "ban hagwons". |
LOL 
10 years ago, people were taking jobs for 2.300.000. If you had told them that ten years later people would be working the same job for 2.000.000 and working more hours, they would have said, "You won't have NETs at" that price.
If hagwons begin offering contracts to NETs…
900.000 won month
housing
BOAT fare
… there will be more than enough people swimming that last 200 meters to get to shore for the job. |
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Rockhard
Joined: 11 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Nester Noodlemon wrote: |
| Rockhard wrote: |
| Nester Noodlemon wrote: |
| Public schools should eliminate the NETs and hogwons should cut the NETs salary to 900,000 won per month. This would help bring down the cost of education and make it more affordable for the poor kids. The NETs have had their chance. Now let us give the poor kids an opportunity. It's the only right thing to do. |
You won't have NETs at 900,000 a month so you are really just saying "ban hagwons". |
LOL
10 years ago, people were taking jobs for 2.300.000. If you had told them that ten years later people would be working the same job for 2.000.000 and working more hours, they would have said, "You won't have NETs at" that price.
If hagwons begin offering contracts to NETs…
900.000 won month
housing
BOAT fare
… there will be more than enough people swimming that last 200 meters to get to shore for the job. |
Ok smart-ass. Open your own hagwon and pay your teachers 900,000 a month. You'll be a millionaire. |
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