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Skippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Daejeon
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 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Recruiters are like a box of Russell Stover's chocolates. While you may get the odd good piece, you know most of them are going to suck. |
+2
Hmm. I need to come up with my own. |
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naturegirl321
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Home sweet home
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Recruiters are like a box of Russell Stover's chocolates. While you may get the odd good piece, you know most of them are going to suck. |
+1 
I've only ever met one recruiting agency that screened out bad schools and refused to place teachers at them. Only 1 out of all the agencies that I've encountered. And I've seen a lot of agencies. |
which agency was that? |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| naturegirl321 wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Recruiters are like a box of Russell Stover's chocolates. While you may get the odd good piece, you know most of them are going to suck. |
+1
I've only ever met one recruiting agency that screened out bad schools and refused to place teachers at them. Only 1 out of all the agencies that I've encountered. And I've seen a lot of agencies. |
which agency was that? |
I've sent you a PM.
BTW, that agency also screens teachers. |
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jMendez86
Joined: 20 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:46 am Post subject: Re: Canyou trust all recruiters from the jobboards on this s |
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| TJ85 wrote: |
Can you trust all recruiters from the job boards on this site?
Just wondering cause I'm reading an employment contract from a recruiter on this websites Job board, that refers to the employee as the "instructor", and not simply the "employee".
The opening sentence of the contract states:
"The following contract is an employment contract between ___________ to be referred to as the "Instructor" and {name of school}.". The rest of the contract just refers to me as the "instructor". |
If you're looking for trustworthy recruiters, I would recommend that you go to a real recruiting company. There are a lot of companies out there that claim to do the same thing, but that just isn't the case. When I was looking for work last year, the best company that I came across was EmploymentCrossing.com. I was able to get in touch with some of the best recruiters in the industry. They're the ones that actually helped me with my international job search and got me the job I wanted in Korea. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Canyou trust all recruiters from the jobboards on this s |
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| jMendez86 wrote: |
| TJ85 wrote: |
Can you trust all recruiters from the job boards on this site?
Just wondering cause I'm reading an employment contract from a recruiter on this websites Job board, that refers to the employee as the "instructor", and not simply the "employee".
The opening sentence of the contract states:
"The following contract is an employment contract between ___________ to be referred to as the "Instructor" and {name of school}.". The rest of the contract just refers to me as the "instructor". |
If you're looking for trustworthy recruiters, I would recommend that you go to a real recruiting company. There are a lot of companies out there that claim to do the same thing, but that just isn't the case. When I was looking for work last year, the best company that I came across was EmploymentCrossing.com. I was able to get in touch with some of the best recruiters in the industry. They're the ones that actually helped me with my international job search and got me the job I wanted in Korea. |
I can't tell if your mocking them or if you're actually being serious.
How do you know that they're the best in the industry? How many jobs did they get you? One? Two? Maybe three? They all work with any client that comes their way. Unfortunately YOU aren't their client. The schools are. All recruiters will place teachers at good schools. They'll all place them at bad schools. Unless you're done some kind of follow up survey with teachers who got jobs through that agency, then the couple of jobs that you go through them mean nothing. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:01 am Post subject: |
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Once again: recruiters are employment facilitators. All they do is put you (applicant) in contact with a job (employer). Use them as such, do not expect anything else from them.
Use their services for what they are, do your homework and you can do well. |
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I'm With You
Joined: 01 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Once again: recruiters are employment facilitators. All they do is put you (applicant) in contact with a job (employer). Use them as such, do not expect anything else from them.
Use their services for what they are, do your homework and you can do well. |
Spoke like a true Recruiter! |
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nate1983
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Recruiters are like a box of Russell Stover's chocolates. While you may get the odd good piece, you know most of them are going to suck. |
+1
I've only ever met one recruiting agency that screened out bad schools and refused to place teachers at them. Only 1 out of all the agencies that I've encountered. And I've seen a lot of agencies. |
I've actually thought about opening up a recruiting business that does just that, and I would create a page with pictures and details about each school. Would make sure to only place teachers into high-quality jobs. While it would limit the available schools to work with, I think building a strong reputation for quality placement would help to overcome that obstacle.
Concept at http://seoulrecruiting.com |
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Skippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Daejeon
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| Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| nate1983 wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Recruiters are like a box of Russell Stover's chocolates. While you may get the odd good piece, you know most of them are going to suck. |
+1
I've only ever met one recruiting agency that screened out bad schools and refused to place teachers at them. Only 1 out of all the agencies that I've encountered. And I've seen a lot of agencies. |
I've actually thought about opening up a recruiting business that does just that, and I would create a page with pictures and details about each school. Would make sure to only place teachers into high-quality jobs. While it would limit the available schools to work with, I think building a strong reputation for quality placement would help to overcome that obstacle.
Concept at http://seoulrecruiting.com |
Why?
Your concept would only really work if the teacher paid the recruiter. Barely at that.
1) Too much work for little or no pay. You have to research the schools. Let's say you spend an hour researching a school. You find it lacking so it goes in the "do not work with" bin. Now if that hour had been spent finding and communicating with a teacher who later gets hired, you just made a fee.
2) You do this and you will likely be ignored by schools. They would not like be judged by someone they are paying. They want to pay to get a teacher with minimal fuss. Plus they would not like the intrusiveness. A school does not want to pay to do more work to prove themselves worthy. Much easier to get another recruiter or do what everyone else does. Use them all.
3) Numbers would get so skewed. Nice to have 10,000 applicants for 7 job postings. You want the other way to make money.
4) What are your standards? Fuzzy standards allows for fudging on things. What is a reputable school to you? Set it too high and no business, set it too low and well you are just like every other recruiter.
5) Basic wonderful human greed. You will, just change what is acceptable. That lost fee cause of a schools not perfect reputation will hurt. Add that in a couple more times and you see yourself losing thousands of dollars you will start saying screw it. What might once be a no working with will start going away.
6) Reputation is only really important when a market is against the seller.
7) Your reputation will mean nothing, cause well a smart job seeker will use you and every other recruiter. So it does not separate you from the pack it just makes you a little bit shinier. You might get me a job, but so might another recruiter. That reputation did nothing.
8 ) People are morons. Try dealing and hand holding some newbie. I knew one girl who refused a to me a pretty decent hagwon job. It was good and a reputable school. She had lots of help from expats in the area about the school and present foreign teacher. Cause of her pickiness and even newbie stupidity she refused it. Imagine being her recruiter and having a good job for weeks and bang you just lost a fee to another recruiter cause of a moron. Idiots will beat you down enough that you will change tactics.
You know what a bad school for a recruiter is? Once that does not pay them on time. |
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almosthome
Joined: 16 Nov 2012
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:47 am Post subject: |
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Oi, Skippy! Way to trample a man's dream.
In defense of a placement-style recruiting model:
1. People seeking jobs from outside Korea would gladly pay for healthy work conditions, good housing, and a fair salary. Many reputable teacher placement agencies around the world charge the recruits instead of (or in addition to) the schools.
2. If the applicant pool grows too large, the agency can increase fees and/or other requirements.
3. Schools can be assessed without being judged; position characteristics can be stated objectively, avoiding insult. What I really want as a job-seeker are all the facts necessary to making an informed employment decision. (A super-detailed spreadsheet would do the trick.)
4. The recruiter would have a clear conscience after work and maybe warm fuzzies, too. |
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nate1983
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| Skippy wrote: |
| nate1983 wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Recruiters are like a box of Russell Stover's chocolates. While you may get the odd good piece, you know most of them are going to suck. |
+1
I've only ever met one recruiting agency that screened out bad schools and refused to place teachers at them. Only 1 out of all the agencies that I've encountered. And I've seen a lot of agencies. |
I've actually thought about opening up a recruiting business that does just that, and I would create a page with pictures and details about each school. Would make sure to only place teachers into high-quality jobs. While it would limit the available schools to work with, I think building a strong reputation for quality placement would help to overcome that obstacle.
Concept at http://seoulrecruiting.com |
Why?
Your concept would only really work if the teacher paid the recruiter. Barely at that.
1) Too much work for little or no pay. You have to research the schools. Let's say you spend an hour researching a school. You find it lacking so it goes in the "do not work with" bin. Now if that hour had been spent finding and communicating with a teacher who later gets hired, you just made a fee.
2) You do this and you will likely be ignored by schools. They would not like be judged by someone they are paying. They want to pay to get a teacher with minimal fuss. Plus they would not like the intrusiveness. A school does not want to pay to do more work to prove themselves worthy. Much easier to get another recruiter or do what everyone else does. Use them all.
3) Numbers would get so skewed. Nice to have 10,000 applicants for 7 job postings. You want the other way to make money.
4) What are your standards? Fuzzy standards allows for fudging on things. What is a reputable school to you? Set it too high and no business, set it too low and well you are just like every other recruiter.
5) Basic wonderful human greed. You will, just change what is acceptable. That lost fee cause of a schools not perfect reputation will hurt. Add that in a couple more times and you see yourself losing thousands of dollars you will start saying screw it. What might once be a no working with will start going away.
6) Reputation is only really important when a market is against the seller.
7) Your reputation will mean nothing, cause well a smart job seeker will use you and every other recruiter. So it does not separate you from the pack it just makes you a little bit shinier. You might get me a job, but so might another recruiter. That reputation did nothing.
8 ) People are morons. Try dealing and hand holding some newbie. I knew one girl who refused a to me a pretty decent hagwon job. It was good and a reputable school. She had lots of help from expats in the area about the school and present foreign teacher. Cause of her pickiness and even newbie stupidity she refused it. Imagine being her recruiter and having a good job for weeks and bang you just lost a fee to another recruiter cause of a moron. Idiots will beat you down enough that you will change tactics.
You know what a bad school for a recruiter is? Once that does not pay them on time. |
Reputation matters to the degree that teachers will go with a "sure thing" in job placement versus playing hagwon roulette. For less qualified candidates, maybe they'd be happy to take any school that will have them, but some people would certainly appreciate a base level of due diligence having been already done.
Obviously standards are subjective, but you could post objective information and solicit testimonials from current/former teachers who could also make themselves available to talk to prospective candidates. The "quality control" might inevitably go both ways.
When I was looking to buy a condo a couple years ago, I looked up the reviews of a broker I was considering on Yelp. 9 reviews, all 5 stars, and people emphasized how he was genuinely helpful and not just trying to turn a quick commission (one woman mentioned how he patiently worked with her for many months). I worked with him, and he was fantastic. Maybe other brokers can turn quicker sales, but ultimately what leads to success is a reputation for delivering reliable results.
Although a recruiter is paid by the school, my idea is simply to think of the teacher as your client, not the product, and see how that turns out. The old model is ripe for disruption, and there is absolutely no reason that teachers shouldn't have more info on what they're getting into before they commit to move 5000+ miles to a foreign land. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| nate1983 wrote: |
| Skippy wrote: |
| nate1983 wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Recruiters are like a box of Russell Stover's chocolates. While you may get the odd good piece, you know most of them are going to suck. |
+1
I've only ever met one recruiting agency that screened out bad schools and refused to place teachers at them. Only 1 out of all the agencies that I've encountered. And I've seen a lot of agencies. |
I've actually thought about opening up a recruiting business that does just that, and I would create a page with pictures and details about each school. Would make sure to only place teachers into high-quality jobs. While it would limit the available schools to work with, I think building a strong reputation for quality placement would help to overcome that obstacle.
Concept at http://seoulrecruiting.com |
Why?
Your concept would only really work if the teacher paid the recruiter. Barely at that.
1) Too much work for little or no pay. You have to research the schools. Let's say you spend an hour researching a school. You find it lacking so it goes in the "do not work with" bin. Now if that hour had been spent finding and communicating with a teacher who later gets hired, you just made a fee.
2) You do this and you will likely be ignored by schools. They would not like be judged by someone they are paying. They want to pay to get a teacher with minimal fuss. Plus they would not like the intrusiveness. A school does not want to pay to do more work to prove themselves worthy. Much easier to get another recruiter or do what everyone else does. Use them all.
3) Numbers would get so skewed. Nice to have 10,000 applicants for 7 job postings. You want the other way to make money.
4) What are your standards? Fuzzy standards allows for fudging on things. What is a reputable school to you? Set it too high and no business, set it too low and well you are just like every other recruiter.
5) Basic wonderful human greed. You will, just change what is acceptable. That lost fee cause of a schools not perfect reputation will hurt. Add that in a couple more times and you see yourself losing thousands of dollars you will start saying screw it. What might once be a no working with will start going away.
6) Reputation is only really important when a market is against the seller.
7) Your reputation will mean nothing, cause well a smart job seeker will use you and every other recruiter. So it does not separate you from the pack it just makes you a little bit shinier. You might get me a job, but so might another recruiter. That reputation did nothing.
8 ) People are morons. Try dealing and hand holding some newbie. I knew one girl who refused a to me a pretty decent hagwon job. It was good and a reputable school. She had lots of help from expats in the area about the school and present foreign teacher. Cause of her pickiness and even newbie stupidity she refused it. Imagine being her recruiter and having a good job for weeks and bang you just lost a fee to another recruiter cause of a moron. Idiots will beat you down enough that you will change tactics.
You know what a bad school for a recruiter is? Once that does not pay them on time. |
Reputation matters to the degree that teachers will go with a "sure thing" in job placement versus playing hagwon roulette. For less qualified candidates, maybe they'd be happy to take any school that will have them, but some people would certainly appreciate a base level of due diligence having been already done.
Obviously standards are subjective, but you could post objective information and solicit testimonials from current/former teachers who could also make themselves available to talk to prospective candidates. The "quality control" might inevitably go both ways.
When I was looking to buy a condo a couple years ago, I looked up the reviews of a broker I was considering on Yelp. 9 reviews, all 5 stars, and people emphasized how he was genuinely helpful and not just trying to turn a quick commission (one woman mentioned how he patiently worked with her for many months). I worked with him, and he was fantastic. Maybe other brokers can turn quicker sales, but ultimately what leads to success is a reputation for delivering reliable results.
Although a recruiter is paid by the school, my idea is simply to think of the teacher as your client, not the product, and see how that turns out. The old model is ripe for disruption, and there is absolutely no reason that teachers shouldn't have more info on what they're getting into before they commit to move 5000+ miles to a foreign land. |
In this model, why would the schools choose to work with you? You would clearly not be working solely in their interest. Would you offer them a half price discount because you're also half working for the teachers? If you're screening the schools, then they might waste time between when they try to hire your services and when you reject them. Better to just go with a recruiter who is guaranteed to work with the school.
From the point of view of the school, what would set you apart from the rest of the recruiters? What would make it worth their while to put up with the extra hassle of being screened? Are you also going to screen the teachers? Will you weed out the backpackers from the career teachers? Will you conduct interviews with them in person?
Considering how many questionable hogwons are out there, are you really willing to take a large cut in your profits? Are you willing to put in the work even though you might get nothing out of it. Recruiting agencies aren't the most profitable business. Business fluctuates. If you get a bad rep then you will likely get fewer clients. (Most hogwon owners within an area know each other and talk about things such as recruiters.)
If you really wanted to pursue something like this, I would recommend against a recruiting company and just start some kind of consulting company for teachers. Basically, teachers pay you to check out schools. Half your fee up front. Half after 6 months. If the school turns out to be a dud, you don't get the second half of the fee. With that type of company, then there is no conflict of interest. You are working on behalf of your client and not a third party. The only person whose interests you're serving is your client (the prospective teacher). |
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nate1983
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
In this model, why would the schools choose to work with you? You would clearly not be working solely in their interest. Would you offer them a half price discount because you're also half working for the teachers? If you're screening the schools, then they might waste time between when they try to hire your services and when you reject them. Better to just go with a recruiter who is guaranteed to work with the school.
From the point of view of the school, what would set you apart from the rest of the recruiters? What would make it worth their while to put up with the extra hassle of being screened? Are you also going to screen the teachers? Will you weed out the backpackers from the career teachers? Will you conduct interviews with them in person?
Considering how many questionable hogwons are out there, are you really willing to take a large cut in your profits? Are you willing to put in the work even though you might get nothing out of it. Recruiting agencies aren't the most profitable business. Business fluctuates. If you get a bad rep then you will likely get fewer clients. (Most hogwon owners within an area know each other and talk about things such as recruiters.)
If you really wanted to pursue something like this, I would recommend against a recruiting company and just start some kind of consulting company for teachers. Basically, teachers pay you to check out schools. Half your fee up front. Half after 6 months. If the school turns out to be a dud, you don't get the second half of the fee. With that type of company, then there is no conflict of interest. You are working on behalf of your client and not a third party. The only person whose interests you're serving is your client (the prospective teacher). |
Getting screened would not be that much of a hassle. Some schools would probably like having their own little corner of the web ("profile page"), or the enhanced reputation from being on a select list. I also run a site that gets over 20,000 visits per month (mostly English teachers in Korea interested in jobs), so I have a natural avenue to offer enhanced exposure and marketing opportunities as well. Heck, I could say I'm creating a "Seoul Professionals Top 100 Institute" list or something and have schools apply so they'd actually feel like it's something they really need to have. Schools that are selected will get half-price recruiting fees for a year.
Schools are going to work with anyone who brings them acceptable candidates, period. The whole point is that if you guarantee teachers schools with good conditions (and have a reputation for such), teachers will prefer to work with you. When the teachers are working with you, the schools will work with you. Maybe place some people for free at first to create goodwill and get your foot in the door. The current placement model is horrible. Recruiters in other industries would not still be in business if they acted like recruiters in Korea. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| nate1983 wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
In this model, why would the schools choose to work with you? You would clearly not be working solely in their interest. Would you offer them a half price discount because you're also half working for the teachers? If you're screening the schools, then they might waste time between when they try to hire your services and when you reject them. Better to just go with a recruiter who is guaranteed to work with the school.
From the point of view of the school, what would set you apart from the rest of the recruiters? What would make it worth their while to put up with the extra hassle of being screened? Are you also going to screen the teachers? Will you weed out the backpackers from the career teachers? Will you conduct interviews with them in person?
Considering how many questionable hogwons are out there, are you really willing to take a large cut in your profits? Are you willing to put in the work even though you might get nothing out of it. Recruiting agencies aren't the most profitable business. Business fluctuates. If you get a bad rep then you will likely get fewer clients. (Most hogwon owners within an area know each other and talk about things such as recruiters.)
If you really wanted to pursue something like this, I would recommend against a recruiting company and just start some kind of consulting company for teachers. Basically, teachers pay you to check out schools. Half your fee up front. Half after 6 months. If the school turns out to be a dud, you don't get the second half of the fee. With that type of company, then there is no conflict of interest. You are working on behalf of your client and not a third party. The only person whose interests you're serving is your client (the prospective teacher). |
Getting screened would not be that much of a hassle. Some schools would probably like having their own little corner of the web ("profile page"), or the enhanced reputation from being on a select list. I also run a site that gets over 20,000 visits per month (mostly English teachers in Korea interested in jobs), so I have a natural avenue to offer enhanced exposure and marketing opportunities as well. Heck, I could say I'm creating a "Seoul Professionals Top 100 Institute" list or something and have schools apply so they'd actually feel like it's something they really need to have. Schools that are selected will get half-price recruiting fees for a year.
Schools are going to work with anyone who brings them acceptable candidates, period. The whole point is that if you guarantee teachers schools with good conditions (and have a reputation for such), teachers will prefer to work with you. When the teachers are working with you, the schools will work with you. Maybe place some people for free at first to create goodwill and get your foot in the door. The current placement model is horrible. Recruiters in other industries would not still be in business if they acted like recruiters in Korea. |
In most countries there are no recruiters. Or if there are, they are not placing the majority of teachers. Most often, schools advertise directly. If they are part of a franchise then the franchise might do the advertising (internally or to the public) but that's about it.
Your idea is a good one in theory but I really don't think that it will catch on. The majority of schools that are hiring, are small mom-and-pop type places. In any evaluation system, they're going to rate lower than the large schools. They also have less to benefit from such a service because they probably only hire one teacher per year.
There have been many black lists and green lists (for good places) and even grey lists (which simply described schools) for schools in Korea. They always fall into disuse when the person who created the page lost interest. But really, who's going to pay you to go check out all of these places? Are you going to cover those costs? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| TJ85 wrote: |
| I have a funny feeling he is stuck in a renewable contract, in which he cant get out of unless he finds the replacement. The contract it self states that the employee has to do this. . |
No such thing. You can quit or finish at any time. The contract requires your agreement to renew. It's not automatic. |
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