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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
Every other religion has to suck up "offensive" things from time to time. Islam goes further by DEMANDING others change their behavior/speech, or face serious consequences. |
Right. It's absurd, really: we have a demographic threatening violence over cartoons and song lyrics, and some people have the nerve to try to lay blame for said violence on cartoonists and song writers. Right in this thread we have someone implying that not complying with Muslim ultimatums amounts to causing violence and riots! |
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tiger fancini
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| Scorpion wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
So, when Koreans stereotype foreigners or mock them, you should suck it up? Or is it outrage at offensive portrayals only the privilige of English-speaking nations?
Respect is a two-way street, you can't demand respect and dignity for how you are treated and then embrace your right to disrespect and insult others. I find it odd that some of the most vocal opponents of Korean bad manners and disrespect towards foreigners are some of the biggest supporters of being able to insult Islam.
I think its perfectly reasonably for the Islamic community to request a change in the lyrics. I hope that YG does the right thing and change them. They aren't engaged in political advocacy, they're a record company. Make your fans and potential fans happy. Buck the ugly trend of delighting in offending Islam and embracing such offensive speech or art (while simultaneously engaging in campaigns against various words- talk about mixed messages) and instead happily comply and be a good neighbor in the world. |
Nobody is singling Islam out for reproach. We are singling out religion, period. But of course misrepresenting what people say is your forte, isn't it. If Christian groups, or Buddhists, Hindus, or Jews complained about lyrics I'd also tell them to take a hike. Why is religion placed on a pedestal and to be respected over and above other ideas or concepts? Stupid, bronze age beliefs fabricated by people who didn't know where the sun went at night don't deserve my respect. And no one has the right to demand that I respect what I in fact don't respect. We bash Christianity a great deal these days (and rightly so), so I'd like to know what reason there is to treat other religions any differently. We have to endure being told that we, and people we love, are going to spend eternity in a lake of fire. If they can dish out such insult, surely they can't complain when their beliefs are criticized. Or are their beliefs, however foul, to be protected under the blanket of religion?
And criticizing a belief system, even ridiculing it, is not the same as the Korean Times et al fabricating lies and spreading misinformation about an identifiable minority group (ESL teachers in Korea). I attack the ideas of religion. When Koreans demonize us they are not attacking our ideas; they are attacking us because of our origins and using falsehoods to do it. To attack religion you do not need to employ any falsehoods. The facts do the job all by themselves. To demonize us on the other hand Koreans have to lie, misrepresent statistics, and engage in character assassination. Your analogies are absurd.
But I accept the right of Koreans to say anything they want about us. I'm certainly not going to demand that they stop and issue an apology to the entire ESL community. The pop group's agent needs to take a stand against religious bullies telling people what they can and can't say. Your religion is exactly that, your religion. It's not mine, and I'm not obligated to hold it in the same esteem as you do, or refrain from criticizing it. Religion is an 'idea', as are the tenants of any particular religion, and in the world of ideas criticism, even ridicule, is fair play. |
This could be the first time ever that I've wholeheartedly agreed with one of Scorpion's posts. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| Scorpion wrote: |
Nobody is singling Islam out for reproach. We are singling out religion, period. But of course misrepresenting what people say is your forte, isn't it. |
100% wrong-
And may I add that the people most misrepresenting things and putting words in people's mouths are those who are attaching threats of violence and terrorism to these statements.
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| Islam is a religion of peace. I'm sure there will be no repercussions. |
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| Peace is their profession. |
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| Their agent needs to tell the Muslim community to %$#^ off. They have no right to demand that people respect their religion (or any religion). They might be offended by the lyrics, but in a liberal democracy you don't have the right to be "not offended". If Christians, Scientologists and Mormons have to suck it up so do Muslims. |
These are posts that are CLEARLY singling out Islam.
| Quote: |
| Why is religion placed on a pedestal and to be respected over and above other ideas or concepts? Stupid, bronze age beliefs fabricated by people who didn't know where the sun went at night don't deserve my respect. |
For one thing, religion is frequently intertwined with ethnicity. Second, often times people are not connecting the parts they find stupid with the issues that are being raised by the people objecting.
"I wish people wouldn't insult the beliefs of Christians concerning forgiveness, mercy, etc."
"Why shouldn't I be able to mock something that says the world was created in six days?"
The two people are arguing over completely different facets of their religion.
Another parallel would be to think its okay to ridicule someone for their political party of choice when their party has a broad range of positions, and not all of them are accepted by every member.
"If you are a republican, you are stupid and worth of ridicule because you think its wrong for gay people to get married".
The obvious flaw is that one position YOU disagree with should not be sufficient to insulting one's entire political beliefs based on what party they voted for, especially considering that they may not hold to every single position the party holds. That is intellectually lazy and the sign of a simpleton.
I think the general guideline is that the religious and non-religious should respect each other. The non-religious shouldn't mock people's religions and the religious shouldn't hurl fire and brimstone-laced invectives at non-believers.
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| When Koreans demonize us they are not attacking our ideas; they are attacking us because of our origins and using falsehoods to do it. |
Well, they might disagree with that. I think many of them feel that they are attacking specific behaviors, rather than national origins, just as you believe you are attacking beliefs and not someone's heritage/ethnicity when going after Islam. However just as you perceive things differently, so too might Muslims as well.
This cavalier attitude where you delight in ridicule is sad. Ridicule isn't about improving things, its about emotional frustration. There is no element of intellectual curiosity, understanding, and communication. |
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Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
Nobody is singling Islam out for reproach. We are singling out religion, period. But of course misrepresenting what people say is your forte, isn't it. |
100% wrong-
And may I add that the people most misrepresenting things and putting words in people's mouths are those who are attaching threats of violence and terrorism to these statements.
| Quote: |
| Islam is a religion of peace. I'm sure there will be no repercussions. |
| Quote: |
| Peace is their profession. |
| Quote: |
| Their agent needs to tell the Muslim community to %$#^ off. They have no right to demand that people respect their religion (or any religion). They might be offended by the lyrics, but in a liberal democracy you don't have the right to be "not offended". If Christians, Scientologists and Mormons have to suck it up so do Muslims. |
These are posts that are CLEARLY singling out Islam.
| Quote: |
| Why is religion placed on a pedestal and to be respected over and above other ideas or concepts? Stupid, bronze age beliefs fabricated by people who didn't know where the sun went at night don't deserve my respect. |
For one thing, religion is frequently intertwined with ethnicity. Second, often times people are not connecting the parts they find stupid with the issues that are being raised by the people objecting.
"I wish people wouldn't insult the beliefs of Christians concerning forgiveness, mercy, etc."
"Why shouldn't I be able to mock something that says the world was created in six days?"
The two people are arguing over completely different facets of their religion.
Another parallel would be to think its okay to ridicule someone for their political party of choice when their party has a broad range of positions, and not all of them are accepted by every member.
"If you are a republican, you are stupid and worth of ridicule because you think its wrong for gay people to get married".
The obvious flaw is that one position YOU disagree with should not be sufficient to insulting one's entire political beliefs based on what party they voted for, especially considering that they may not hold to every single position the party holds. That is intellectually lazy and the sign of a simpleton.
I think the general guideline is that the religious and non-religious should respect each other. The non-religious shouldn't mock people's religions and the religious shouldn't hurl fire and brimstone-laced invectives at non-believers.
| Quote: |
| When Koreans demonize us they are not attacking our ideas; they are attacking us because of our origins and using falsehoods to do it. |
Well, they might disagree with that. I think many of them feel that they are attacking specific behaviors, rather than national origins, just as you believe you are attacking beliefs and not someone's heritage/ethnicity when going after Islam. However just as you perceive things differently, so too might Muslims as well.
This cavalier attitude where you delight in ridicule is sad. Ridicule isn't about improving things, its about emotional frustration. There is no element of intellectual curiosity, understanding, and communication. |
Steelrails, you got me all wrong. I was just using the old Strategic Air Command's ironic slogan and applying it to them as a way of illustrating how little difference there is in the means of the two, despite their ideology. I'm not singling them out. I'm adding them in. And there is a long list of groups throughout history that would belong as well. Many religions, in fact. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Second, often times people are not connecting the parts they find stupid with the issues that are being raised by the people objecting.
"I wish people wouldn't insult the beliefs of Christians concerning forgiveness, mercy, etc."
"Why shouldn't I be able to mock something that says the world was created in six days?"
The two people are arguing over completely different facets of their religion. |
I don't think exchanges like this are particularly common at all. When someone attacks creationism, it's usually creationists which get riled up, not religious moderates who simply think their religion has good ethical teachings and enjoy holding some vague belief in a divinity. Mercy and forgiveness are rarely the object of scorn or mockery, even most atheists will admit that if Christians actually followed those teachings (they almost never do in my experience), it would be a reasonably admirable thing.
Ultimately, I cannot think of any serious justification for barring the criticism of religious beliefs. Then again, I don't think race-based insults are that big of a deal either. |
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
Nobody is singling Islam out for reproach. We are singling out religion, period. But of course misrepresenting what people say is your forte, isn't it. |
100% wrong-
And may I add that the people most misrepresenting things and putting words in people's mouths are those who are attaching threats of violence and terrorism to these statements.
| Quote: |
| Islam is a religion of peace. I'm sure there will be no repercussions. |
| Quote: |
| Peace is their profession. |
| Quote: |
| Their agent needs to tell the Muslim community to %$#^ off. They have no right to demand that people respect their religion (or any religion). They might be offended by the lyrics, but in a liberal democracy you don't have the right to be "not offended". If Christians, Scientologists and Mormons have to suck it up so do Muslims. |
These are posts that are CLEARLY singling out Islam. . |
Wrong. As has been pointed out we are not "singling out Islam" for reproach, we are "including Islam in." Do you think the mega-threads in the past about religion on Daves were focusing on attacking Islam? Of course not, theyt were attacking religion generally and Christianity in particular. And Christianity got bashed because the proselytizers on Daves were mostly Christian and because that's the religion we know most about. And this 'controversy' over pop lyrics. It has nothing to do with subconscious feelings about race or the ethnicity of Muslims. Any search of my posting record will not show any anti-Islam or anti-Arab bias. That only exists in your mind. My criticism is of religion: period. As an atheist I see all religions as part of the same phenomenon. And any religion that holds a primitive, anti-scientific understanding of the world and yet demands that primitive world view must be respected, is indeed worthy of ridicule, even open contempt. Helping humanity remove itself from ignorance and superstition is a moral good, and intellectually sound. |
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Smithington
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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The thing is this: how many pop songs over the decades have insulted Christianity? Too many to count. How many have advised us to question the tenants of inherited belief systems. Too many to count. From John Lennon's brilliant 'Imagine' to the Stones 'Sympathy for the Devil' they are long lists indeed. Then there are the songs that incorporate verses from 'holy texts' as part of a larger measure. Leonard Cohen's 'Hallelujah' to George Harrison's 'My Sweet Lord.' Many of these songs are beautiful, some are meant to criticize or offer new thinking on the matter of religion. Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and Jews haven't gone nuts over these songs. When John Lennon said the Beatles were bigger than Jesus a lot of Southern Christians burned their records. That's fine. They have the right to do that. But they can't insist that I burn mine, or threaten to burn the musicians themselves. Only Islam resorts to threats of violence. Salmon Rushdie had to go into hiding for over a decade because he wrote a novel. A fatwaa was issued against a Dutch cartoonist for drawing pictures of Mohammed. An ESL teacher in Somalia was arrested and threatened with years' imprisonment for referring to a Teddy bear as Mohammed. Family Guy had to drop an intended skit about the incident because of threats of violence. On and on it goes. There is simply no equivalent in modern Christianity.
I agree that all religion is nonsense. But one in particular resorts to threats of violence much more readily than others. And it is not prejudiced to point this out, any more than it is prejudiced to point out that the Catholic Church has a paedophile priest problem. The thing is this; I could insult Jesus publicly and vulgarly and then walk home through the toughest, most reactionary Christian neighborhood imaginable and be completely safe. Can we say the same about insulting Mohammed then walking home through a Muslim neighborhood? We all know the answer.
This reality deseves to be criticized. And in the case of the Korean pop group, where was the insult. They just incorporated a few passages from the Koran describing heaven. To any reasonable person this is harmless. It certainly doesn't warrant veiled threats against the group or its management. (For goodness sake, this could be the first time a K-pop group ever did anything remotely creative.) But in a liberal democracy even harsh, offensive things can be said about institutions and ideas. The offended group has the right to express its displeasure, but it is a universal tenet of democracy that threatening violence is beyond the pale.
And if Muslims are so offended by insult, real or imagined, they can start by removing 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion' from virtually every bookstore across the Muslim world. Once they do that, we will perhaps give an ear to their lectures on religious and cultural sensitivity. |
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SeoulNate
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
The thing is this: how many pop songs over the decades have insulted Christianity? Too many to count. How many have advised us to question the tenants of inherited belief systems. Too many to count. From John Lennon's brilliant 'Imagine' to the Stones 'Sympathy for the Devil' they are long lists indeed. Then there are the songs that incorporate verses from 'holy texts' as part of a larger measure. Leonard Cohen's 'Hallelujah' to George Harrison's 'My Sweet Lord.' Many of these songs are beautiful, some are meant to criticize or offer new thinking on the matter of religion. Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and Jews haven't gone nuts over these songs. When John Lennon said the Beatles were bigger than Jesus a lot of Southern Christians burned their records. That's fine. They have the right to do that. But they can't insist that I burn mine, or threaten to burn the musicians themselves. Only Islam resorts to threats of violence. Salmon Rushdie had to go into hiding for over a decade because he wrote a novel. A fatwaa was issued against a Dutch cartoonist for drawing pictures of Mohammed. An ESL teacher in Somalia was arrested and threatened with years' imprisonment for referring to a Teddy bear as Mohammed. Family Guy had to drop an intended skit about the incident because of threats of violence. On and on it goes. There is simply no equivalent in modern Christianity.
I agree that all religion is nonsense. But one in particular resorts to threats of violence much more readily than others. And it is not prejudiced to point this out, any more than it is prejudiced to point out that the Catholic Church has a paedophile priest problem. The thing is this; I could insult Jesus publicly and vulgarly and then walk home through the toughest, most reactionary Christian neighborhood imaginable and be completely safe. Can we say the same about insulting Mohammed then walking home through a Muslim neighborhood? We all know the answer.
This reality deseves to be criticized. And in the case of the Korean pop group, where was the insult. They just incorporated a few passages from the Koran describing heaven. To any reasonable person this is harmless. It certainly doesn't warrant veiled threats against the group or its management. (For goodness sake, this could be the first time a K-pop group ever did anything remotely creative.) But in a liberal democracy even harsh, offensive things can be said about institutions and ideas. The offended group has the right to express its displeasure, but it is a universal tenet of democracy that threatening violence is beyond the pale.
And if Muslims are so offended by insult, real or imagined, they can start by removing 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion' from virtually every bookstore across the Muslim world. Once they do that, we will perhaps give an ear to their lectures on religious and cultural sensitivity. |
Good point, well put. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| jazzmaster wrote: |
| Smithington wrote: |
The thing is this: how many pop songs over the decades have insulted Christianity? Too many to count. How many have advised us to question the tenants of inherited belief systems. Too many to count. From John Lennon's brilliant 'Imagine' to the Stones 'Sympathy for the Devil' they are long lists indeed. Then there are the songs that incorporate verses from 'holy texts' as part of a larger measure. Leonard Cohen's 'Hallelujah' to George Harrison's 'My Sweet Lord.' Many of these songs are beautiful, some are meant to criticize or offer new thinking on the matter of religion. Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and Jews haven't gone nuts over these songs. When John Lennon said the Beatles were bigger than Jesus a lot of Southern Christians burned their records. That's fine. They have the right to do that. But they can't insist that I burn mine, or threaten to burn the musicians themselves. Only Islam resorts to threats of violence. Salmon Rushdie had to go into hiding for over a decade because he wrote a novel. A fatwaa was issued against a Dutch cartoonist for drawing pictures of Mohammed. An ESL teacher in Somalia was arrested and threatened with years' imprisonment for referring to a Teddy bear as Mohammed. Family Guy had to drop an intended skit about the incident because of threats of violence. On and on it goes. There is simply no equivalent in modern Christianity.
I agree that all religion is nonsense. But one in particular resorts to threats of violence much more readily than others. And it is not prejudiced to point this out, any more than it is prejudiced to point out that the Catholic Church has a paedophile priest problem. The thing is this; I could insult Jesus publicly and vulgarly and then walk home through the toughest, most reactionary Christian neighborhood imaginable and be completely safe. Can we say the same about insulting Mohammed then walking home through a Muslim neighborhood? We all know the answer.
This reality deseves to be criticized. And in the case of the Korean pop group, where was the insult. They just incorporated a few passages from the Koran describing heaven. To any reasonable person this is harmless. It certainly doesn't warrant veiled threats against the group or its management. (For goodness sake, this could be the first time a K-pop group ever did anything remotely creative.) But in a liberal democracy even harsh, offensive things can be said about institutions and ideas. The offended group has the right to express its displeasure, but it is a universal tenet of democracy that threatening violence is beyond the pale.
And if Muslims are so offended by insult, real or imagined, they can start by removing 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion' from virtually every bookstore across the Muslim world. Once they do that, we will perhaps give an ear to their lectures on religious and cultural sensitivity. |
Good point, well put. |
Also agreed. Well, except the bit about 'Imagine' being brilliant. |
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oatmeal
Joined: 26 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Radical and extreme muslims are a joke.
Just look at the UK, France, Sweden, Germany, Denmark, and the
rest of Europe what they are doing there.
The less radical muslims there are in a society, the better off it is IMHO. |
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
| And in the case of the Korean pop group, where was the insult. They just incorporated a few passages from the Koran describing heaven. To any reasonable person this is harmless. It certainly doesn't warrant veiled threats against the group or its management. (For goodness sake, this could be the first time a K-pop group ever did anything remotely creative.) |
LOL. They probably just heard about the "Koran" and thought "Korean" so incorporated a few passages from it into their song. Any time now the Korean Times will inform us that Islam comes from Korea and that the spelling of their holy book proves it. 
On a more serious note, several Islamic countries are trying to pass anti-blaspemy resolutions at the UN. Ireland actually passed such a law two years ago but such was the outcry there have (to my knowledge) been no prosecutions. The law makes it a crime to give offense to another religion. Just another attempt to place religion outside the barriers of public discourse. But Ireland, of all places, should know what happens when religions go unchallenged - you end up with massive abuse of power and clerical corruption. And we all know the only reason the last pope is not in prison is because he was the pope. If he was the CEO of a worldwide chain of daycare centers that knowingly covered up child molestation he'd be spending the rest of his life in jail. But he's not, and there's only one explanation for that. And that needs to change. In the global marketplace of ideas religion cannot claim special status. This isn't the Middle Ages.
And they need to start paying their friggin' taxes. |
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Squire
Joined: 26 Sep 2010
Location: Jeollanam-do
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| This pop group and the record companies pulling their strings should completely ignore these fringe lunatics' demands. Hopefully they don't respond in any way whatsoever. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
These are posts that are CLEARLY singling out Islam.
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So what?
Islam singles ITSELF out. It seems to be the only religion that thinks its entitled to such strong "protections" against "offenses", and will threaten real violence if you don't comply, even when you don't live in a Muslim majority country.
This thread is about Islam and how it often tries to go further than most other religions in terms of censorship and violence. Therefore, it should be singled out as being different in certain ways.
Read this very good post again:
| Quote: |
The thing is this: how many pop songs over the decades have insulted Christianity? Too many to count. How many have advised us to question the tenants of inherited belief systems. Too many to count. From John Lennon's brilliant 'Imagine' to the Stones 'Sympathy for the Devil' they are long lists indeed. Then there are the songs that incorporate verses from 'holy texts' as part of a larger measure. Leonard Cohen's 'Hallelujah' to George Harrison's 'My Sweet Lord.' Many of these songs are beautiful, some are meant to criticize or offer new thinking on the matter of religion. Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and Jews haven't gone nuts over these songs. When John Lennon said the Beatles were bigger than Jesus a lot of Southern Christians burned their records. That's fine. They have the right to do that. But they can't insist that I burn mine, or threaten to burn the musicians themselves. Only Islam resorts to threats of violence. Salmon Rushdie had to go into hiding for over a decade because he wrote a novel. A fatwaa was issued against a Dutch cartoonist for drawing pictures of Mohammed. An ESL teacher in Somalia was arrested and threatened with years' imprisonment for referring to a Teddy bear as Mohammed. Family Guy had to drop an intended skit about the incident because of threats of violence. On and on it goes. There is simply no equivalent in modern Christianity.
I agree that all religion is nonsense. But one in particular resorts to threats of violence much more readily than others. And it is not prejudiced to point this out, any more than it is prejudiced to point out that the Catholic Church has a paedophile priest problem. The thing is this; I could insult Jesus publicly and vulgarly and then walk home through the toughest, most reactionary Christian neighborhood imaginable and be completely safe. Can we say the same about insulting Mohammed then walking home through a Muslim neighborhood? We all know the answer.
This reality deseves to be criticized. And in the case of the Korean pop group, where was the insult. They just incorporated a few passages from the Koran describing heaven. To any reasonable person this is harmless. It certainly doesn't warrant veiled threats against the group or its management. (For goodness sake, this could be the first time a K-pop group ever did anything remotely creative.) But in a liberal democracy even harsh, offensive things can be said about institutions and ideas. The offended group has the right to express its displeasure, but it is a universal tenet of democracy that threatening violence is beyond the pale.
And if Muslims are so offended by insult, real or imagined, they can start by removing 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion' from virtually every bookstore across the Muslim world. Once they do that, we will perhaps give an ear to their lectures on religious and cultural sensitivity. |
Also, imagine if the shoe was on the other foot:
An aspiring pop group in Pakistan puts a clip of a Bible verse in their song. Radical Christians from the USA claim it's insulting and demand it be changed and want an apology to ALL Christians immediately or the pop group and everyone in the production studio may suffer violent consequences.
Who would defend this position? Who would denounce it? If you are going to denounce this sort of action/belief system, then for consistency sake you have to do the same when Muslims try to do similar things. They don't get a free pass. (Well, actually they do: when people give in to their absurd demands or try to put them above criticism). |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:58 am Post subject: |
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I think people in this issue are confusing what should be legal and what should be proper.
I think you have every right to be insulting towards people, I just don't think you should do it. And if they ask you to stop, you should strongly consider it.
It's like waving the Confederate flag in a black family's face. I defend your right to do so, and you may even have good reasons, but don't be shocked when people ask you to stop and think you're a complete jerk for doing so and things escalate from there. |
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