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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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 Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Died By Bear wrote: |
Curious to know when the term 'Oriental' became un-pc. I corrected someone last week about this, told them that my wife hates it. 'Asian' is the correct term to use when discussing the race. He was embarrassed that he didn't know. Asked me why, and I really didn't know the answer.
It's the result of people trying to solve an embolism with a bandage.
People use words in a harmful manner. That doesn't make the words themselves malicious, but the context and intention behind them.
Growing up, using 'oriental' was accepted. I know that there are negative stereotypes and connotations associated with the term, but I didn't know when the change came about.
Oriental - Referring to "Asian" people.
Jap - Especially if you served in WWII
JAP - Even if you're Jewish, apparently
Jew - My Jewish friends don't seem to mind it, but apparently it's derogatory.
Black - Silly, but yeah, you can't refer to someone by skin color as a categorization.
Negro - "African" is apparently a less offensive cultural stigma than "Negro", even though they mean the same thing
Brother - Ok, but it's cheesy anyway
Chick - Unless you're talking about baby birds... err... if you're from UK, I mean the animal
Biotch - Same as above, but for dogs... or if you're talking about a male friend.
Spic - 'n' Span I have many friends from Latin America who don't even know what it means! LOL so who is it offending?
Still acceptable: "Cracka", "Gringo", "WASP", "The Man", etc |
Really? I've used black and white all the time. Other blacks call themselves black too. I've called black friends this.
Jew is bad? Isn't that what they are? Isn't Israel referred to as athe Jewish State by the Israelis themselves? The people who have the same God are Chritians, Muslims, and Jews.
I can understand not using the "N" word, but chill out folks. Too much PCism means too little common sense. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| Sesame wrote: |
I say the OP should understand that is what is implied when saying "Koreans". Surely no one is dumb enough on here to suggest 100% of Koreans act a certain way.
Liberals are so annoying. captain save a race. |
+1.
How about saying instead: "those people who emerged from the inner depths of a place near Mongolia" and "those people who originated out of nothern Europe and Central Indo Asia" for the others? Is that PC enough for you? |
I think 'Altaic' is easier, though Im not sure the 'people of Altaic origins' would agree because their heritage is also partly Japonic from when the nomadic tribes converged with the Yayoi culture.
So to avoid causing offense to the Koreans who are reading this, how about we just say;
'those people who emerged from the inner depths of a place near Mongolia as Proto-Koreanic nomads merging with people of questionable, specific origin who are now located on the Southern part of the Peninsula who's modern name is the Republic of Korea'?
I think that has a certain ring to it? It could easily catch on. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| Sesame wrote: |
I say the OP should understand that is what is implied when saying "Koreans". Surely no one is dumb enough on here to suggest 100% of Koreans act a certain way.
Liberals are so annoying. captain save a race. |
+1.
How about saying instead: "those people who emerged from the inner depths of a place near Mongolia" and "those people who originated out of nothern Europe and Central Indo Asia" for the others? Is that PC enough for you? |
I think 'Altaic' is easier, though Im not sure the 'people of Altaic origins' would agree because their heritage is also partly Japonic from when the nomadic tribes converged with the Yayoi culture.
So to avoid causing offense to the Koreans who are reading this, how about we just say;
'those people who emerged from the inner depths of a place near Mongolia as Proto-Koreanic nomads merging with people of questionable, specific origin who are now located on the Southern part of the Peninsula who's modern name is the Republic of Korea'?
I think that has a certain ring to it? It could easily catch on. |
Ha ha. You've topped me agin le-paul. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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P.s.
Like another poster said, we're all supposed to be semi-intelligent adults on here and know what someone is implying.
If it needs to be pointed out every time someone says 'Koreans' (or whatever) that 'not all Koreans are like that!', when in fact someone was making a general statement and probably does not in fact believe that every single person from that specific, geographic location is a clone, then we're starting from the assumption that both parties are extremely ignorant. In which case any rational discussion will not end well regardless. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Stain wrote: |
| I believe you missed the point. He means if we are going to make generalizations about koreans, using "most" or "many" would keep posters like Steelrails from using it as way to downplay these generalizations, which happen to be mostly true despite the fact that that there are exceptions. It's the exceptions that posters like Steelrails use to try to say that these statements are not characteristic of Koreans, even though they are. Therefore, he's not trying to lecture us about racism. |
Yeah but Steelrails has already found a counter, with the 70% of blacks bit above.
The ultimate solution is to basically do what I do: eliminate any reference whatsoever to ethnicity from commentary, or make absolutely sure that your statement comes across as discussing an isolated incident.
Though in all honesty, I have little interest in discussing issues of ethnicity, outside of cultural discussions about Korea when visiting the folks back home. The most unfun thing I can imagine doing is sitting around with some other dudes whining about how Koreans do this bad thing and that bad thing.
That being said, I'm not going to attempt to enforce my expectations on other people.
| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
| What's happened to this site, where one user's opinion matters so much? |
The guy goes into thread after thread after thread, finds one random user who wrote something offensive, and then writes novella-length, blanket responses and rants about how foreigners are hypocrites. Because of said random asshat user. This in turn derails the thread so that the posters who were playing nice the entire time can't get the conversation back on track.
It got old a loooooooooooooong time ago. My kingdom for an ignore user feature on this site...
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Exactly! You're not supposed to say racist stuff!!!! You're supposed to not overly-generalize! You're not supposed to write like that in the first place! I mean we have threads going on where people are denying white privilege and bigotry and now we have people saying "Hey, we shouldn't generalize and be racist!" in other words, "Maybe we should start doing the right thing". And this comes after years of people on this board constantly pointing it out and arguing constantly. But please, don't do it because of me or PGHBusan or TUM. Do it because it is the right thing to do! |
No. You are not affecting change. I told you in that PM that all of these discussions are the same shit that went on back in 2003 when I first started posting on here. You rail on opinions expressed by some first-year newbie or ancient curmudgeon troll. The newbies leave and get replaced by more opinionated and clueless newbies who are going to spew the same vitriolic diatribes, and the trolls are f***ing with you to begin with. This dynamic on the board is never going to change, no matter how red in the face you get complaining about it.
You are not winning some epic struggle here, dude. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| Zyzyfer wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Exactly! You're not supposed to say racist stuff!!!! You're supposed to not overly-generalize! You're not supposed to write like that in the first place! I mean we have threads going on where people are denying white privilege and bigotry and now we have people saying "Hey, we shouldn't generalize and be racist!" in other words, "Maybe we should start doing the right thing". And this comes after years of people on this board constantly pointing it out and arguing constantly. But please, don't do it because of me or PGHBusan or TUM. Do it because it is the right thing to do! |
No. You are not affecting change. I told you in that PM that all of these discussions are the same shit that went on back in 2003 when I first started posting on here. You rail on opinions expressed by some first-year newbie or ancient curmudgeon troll. The newbies leave and get replaced by more opinionated and clueless newbies who are going to spew the same vitriolic diatribes, and the trolls are f***ing with you to begin with. This dynamic on the board is never going to change, no matter how red in the face you get complaining about it.
You are not winning some epic struggle here, dude. |
Oh, I know. That part about 5 years of change was some over-the-top tongue-in-cheekness. This place will never change. But maybe, for a brief moment someone might get the sudden brainstorm of "Hey maybe I shouldn't say Koreans do this". |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| Died By Bear wrote: |
Curious to know when the term 'Oriental' became un-pc. I corrected someone last week about this, told them that my wife hates it. 'Asian' is the correct term to use when discussing the race. He was embarrassed that he didn't know. Asked me why, and I really didn't know the answer.
It's the result of people trying to solve an embolism with a bandage.
People use words in a harmful manner. That doesn't make the words themselves malicious, but the context and intention behind them.
Growing up, using 'oriental' was accepted. I know that there are negative stereotypes and connotations associated with the term, but I didn't know when the change came about.
Oriental - Referring to "Asian" people.
Jap - Especially if you served in WWII
JAP - Even if you're Jewish, apparently
Jew - My Jewish friends don't seem to mind it, but apparently it's derogatory.
Black - Silly, but yeah, you can't refer to someone by skin color as a categorization.
Negro - "African" is apparently a less offensive cultural stigma than "Negro", even though they mean the same thing
Brother - Ok, but it's cheesy anyway
Chick - Unless you're talking about baby birds... err... if you're from UK, I mean the animal
Biotch - Same as above, but for dogs... or if you're talking about a male friend.
Spic - 'n' Span I have many friends from Latin America who don't even know what it means! LOL so who is it offending?
Still acceptable: "Cracka", "Gringo", "WASP", "The Man", etc |
Really? I've used black and white all the time. Other blacks call themselves black too. I've called black friends this.
Jew is bad? Isn't that what they are? Isn't Israel referred to as athe Jewish State by the Israelis themselves? The people who have the same God are Chritians, Muslims, and Jews.
I can understand not using the "N" word, but chill out folks. Too much PCism means too little common sense. |
Yep, even Jesse Jackson said he was down with black, preferring it over African-American. Of course, African-American was quite a mouthful for Jesse.  |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| This in turn derails the thread so that the posters who were playing nice the entire time can't get the conversation back on track |
Thread after thread after thread gets derailed. For example the thread on mixed-race children actually had good stuff on what it's like to raise kids here. Then the ultra-hypocrite comes along and goes on and on, for page after page, on not generalizing about Koreans, while he makes generalizations about foreigners on this board. Also when some posters write that "Koreans" do this or that, I'm thinking, not everybody... it would be nice to have some precision and a great habit to get into for not stereotyping ( even though as one guy said, we should be mature enough to handle it.)
Last edited by postfundie on Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jongno2bucheon
Joined: 11 Mar 2014
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:08 am Post subject: |
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Maybe some people can relate to this:
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| While the slavery of Africans and the genocide of Native Americans are familiar topics to many, what the ESL Teachers in Korea endured remains an unfamiliar subject to most. Severe acts of racism and discrimination—pogroms, massacres, mass expulsions and near-genocidal policies—were perpetrated against the ESL Teachers, but the facts surrounding this ESL chapter in Korean history are largely neglected or suppressed, and certainly not taught in standard school text books. Official mentions of the topic, if any, are anemic at best and tend to emphasize the concessions granted to the ESL Teachers or the few reparative steps taken by the Korean government, which, as a rule, came as too-little-too-late for many ESL Teachers. |
Okay, never mind. Probably not, all that word switching sounded strange.
http://www.zakkeith.com/articles,blogs,forums/anti-Chinese-persecution-in-the-USA-history-timeline.htm
Perhaps there is some ESL "Han" to ponder about?
Oh.. ok.
By the way, the year 2004 in that link may resonate if I switched the words around... |
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3DR
Joined: 24 May 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:16 am Post subject: |
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The sheer hilarity comes from the very same ignorant, racist, waygooks who get upset when Koreans say "why do foreigners do this? why do foreigners act like that."
Can dish it, but they can't take it lol.
Seems legit. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| 3DR wrote: |
The sheer hilarity comes from the very same ignorant, racist, waygooks who get upset when Koreans say "why do foreigners do this? why do foreigners act like that."
Can dish it, but they can't take it lol.
Seems legit. |
Don't you know the old adage 'Do as I say, not as I do'?
Seems to suit most people (myself not excluded), or as I used to enjoy people saying but never do anymore - 'Hey! I resemble that comment!'. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| Then the ultra-hypocrite comes along and goes on and on, for page after page, on not generalizing about Koreans, while he makes generalizations about foreigners on this board. |
Really? You don't think the ultra hypocrites are the people who write bigoted rants about Koreans and then complain about Korean bigotry?
And none of my generalizations have been on the level of the anti-Korean vitriol that's posted here. And I also am careful to use the words 'some', which you advocate below.
And as I've mentioned, plenty of threads get derailed by both sides, but when you agree with one side, its not "derailing", its adding an interesting tangent. Only when you disagree with them is it "derailing".
| Quote: |
Also when some posters write that "Koreans" do this or that, I'm thinking, not everybody... it would be nice to have some precision and a great habit to get into for not stereotyping ( even though as one guy said, we should be mature enough to handle it.)
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Again, THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO. It should already be a habit. You shouldn't have to "get into it"!!!!! That's like saying "You know what, maybe we should get into the habit of saying 'some Mexican-Americans are illegal immigrants' instead of 'Mexicans are illegal immigrants', it would be nice for not stereotyping". You're not supposed to do that in the first place! You shouldn't be having to train yourself about that habit! Weren't you all taught this in your 'anti-racist' school and society back home?
Writing is a reflection of your thoughts. If you can't be bothered to make those distinctions when you write, are you making those distinctions when you think? It's almost comical how we have people going on about the levels of bigotry back home being far less and how there isn't bias and what not, and here we have people having things dawn on them and suggesting that, "You know what, we SHOULD try and use the words 'some' or 'many' when we're talking about entire countries".
Saying 'some' isn't some great concession or achievement. It parallels that Chris Rock bit where people brag "I take care of my kids" or "I've never been to jail". You're supposed to take care of your kids! You're supposed to not go to jail! Well, same with using words like 'some' to talk about entire ethnicities.
| Quote: |
( even though as one guy said, we should be mature enough to handle it.)
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Actually, if they can't be bothered to make the distinction in writing, its probably a good reflection on their thought processes. How do we know what they mean? And even if they intellectually in the back of their mind understand that not EVERY Korean does this, emotionally they are not at that place. If someone is saying "Koreans have no concern for others" and then calls them "peasants in suits", sorry but I'm not thinking the person is just forgetting to add in a qualifier and we should just move on.
"Blacks have no concern for others. I'm waiting for them to join the 21st century.....Wait, don't you know I meant 'some', not all black people, when I said that. What do you mean I'm a bigot??? You should be mature enough to handle it and know what I meant."  |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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More utter BS from SR. You rarely use "some." You habitually make over-generalizations. You post your opinions as facts. You over-exaggerate. You resort to hyperbole and bombast. You twist and spin the words of other posters.
And you lie.
Josef Goebbels ain't got nothing on you.
So please take the hypocrisy of your last post and shove it. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
More utter BS from SR. You rarely use "some." You habitually make over-generalizations. You post your opinions as facts. You over-exaggerate. You resort to hyperbole and bombast. You twist and spin the words of other posters.
And you lie.
Josef Goebbels ain't got nothing on you.
So please take the hypocrisy of your last post and shove it. |
 Et tu Brute? You just compared me to Josef Goebbels. |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Just because you think Steelrails sometimes fails to use a modifier doesn't make not using a modifier right. Right is still right. Using a modifier is the real common sense not understanding that it should be used.
While I think the OP had the best intentions, I tend to agree with the person who thought he was drunk, using a modifier such as many and some, doesn't make statements like "peasants in suits" any less, well, condescending and arrogant at best, possibly racist at worst.
Working overseas has more than its share of challenges. Dealing with culture shock - the realization that people (of another culture) think and act differently than you is one of them.
I suspect there is a lot more people suffering from culture shock than will admit it. Though, when you read articles like the one about the President of Pagoda, it is not too surprising that a lot of people develop negative views of Koreans, as many people are abused in their jobs, especially hakwon jobs. But, as always, we should see everyone as individuals, not as whole groups. You would not want Koreans to stereotype all people from your home country based on the bad behavior of some or even many of your fellow compatriots. |
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