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AfroBurrito
Joined: 19 Dec 2013
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dairyairy
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea
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 Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| Interesting. Thanks for posting it. |
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andrewchon
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: Back in Oz. Living in ISIS Aust.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| American: A fight is communication. Does that apply toAmerican women as well? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| "Korean Elastic Truth." |
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frankhenry
Joined: 13 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| hhhmmmm Koreans not so good with truth. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Am I the only person that saw that article as a list a racial stereotypes dressed up as an article on negotiating styles?
The germans know alot but talk too much.
Spanish and Italians gesticulate a lot when they talk and their languages are very melodical
french are all talk and no action
swiss people keep themselves to themselves because they have everything they need - so they dont need you.
etc. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, either you're going to go in with the idea that all nationalities behave in the same way you're going to prepare a bit for differences. Wherever there's money at stake, as there is in business negotiations, I assume people have figured out that it pays to bone up on this kind of thing. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
Am I the only person that saw that article as a list a racial stereotypes dressed up as an article on negotiating styles?
The germans know alot but talk too much.
Spanish and Italians gesticulate a lot when they talk and their languages are very melodical
french are all talk and no action
swiss people keep themselves to themselves because they have everything they need - so they dont need you.
etc. |
Stereotypes often emerge because they are true, though. The human mind is good at noticing patterns, why should we pretend the cultural patterns we notice don't exist? It's always so bizarre how the same people that talk up the "value" of cultural diversity get upset the moment anyone acknowledges any specific examples of that diversity. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
Am I the only person that saw that article as a list a racial stereotypes dressed up as an article on negotiating styles?
The germans know alot but talk too much.
Spanish and Italians gesticulate a lot when they talk and their languages are very melodical
french are all talk and no action
swiss people keep themselves to themselves because they have everything they need - so they dont need you.
etc. |
Stereotypes often emerge because they are true, though. The human mind is good at noticing patterns, why should we pretend the cultural patterns we notice don't exist? It's always so bizarre how the same people that talk up the "value" of cultural diversity get upset the moment anyone acknowledges any specific examples of that diversity. |
I agree to a point but I wouldnt say so much that 'stereotypes often emerge because they are true' as much as there are often truths in the 'roots' of the concept. Usually, these roots are historical, and exaggerated by media such as classic style movies (more often than not - comedies) and language text books that use illustrations, to use two examples.
I wasn't pointing out that it is either 'right' nor 'wrong' that the article seemed to be using stereotypes as a basis of which to conduct business transactions. However, I do believe it is a little simplistic (and may not be productive) to approach a person from a different culture (in any situation let alone conducting business), with the basis of your judgement, and being armed only with, the possibility of that person being the embodiment of an almost child minded-like image of a stereotype. If anything, that would set you up to fail surely, wouldnt it?
If i walked into a game of poker and said to myself 'ah, he's Korean, he must be lying all the time', 'Hes American, he must be trying to intimidate me' etc. Im pretty sure they would be taking the money from the table more often than I would.
And the patterns comment. In brief, unless it is conducted in a laboratory, clinical style test, the concept of 'recognising patterns' and interpreting them, is very much open to a humanistic analysis and therefore prone to being flawed ie - the results of said persons analysis. This would depend for example on how much of a positive or negative thinker you are (you see 3 people arguing today - you think it will be a bad day) etc. etc.
And by the way, I dont think I was upset when I posted my comment and I don't remember talking about the value of cultural diversity. Perhaps I did that in another thread and you could refresh my memory. In all earnest, I don't remember.
Maybe I did it in one of the both forums we both visit for example Historum? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
| However, I do believe it is a little simplistic (and may not be productive) to approach a person from a different culture (in any situation let alone conducting business), with the basis of your judgement, and being armed only with, the possibility of that person being the embodiment of an almost child minded-like image of a stereotype. If anything, that would set you up to fail surely, wouldnt it? |
Yes, it would be a little simplistic. Cultural generalizations speak to the common trends between a large number of people, but cannot adequately grasp an individual. The fact that Koreans often enough "stretch the truth" during negotiations or contract formulation, for example, doesn't mean that any individual Korean does it. Such information is more something to bear in mind than something which one ought to allow to directly guide one's action.
| le-paul wrote: |
| And the patterns comment. In brief, unless it is conducted in a laboratory, clinical style test, the concept of 'recognising patterns' and interpreting them, is very much open to a humanistic analysis and therefore prone to being flawed ie - the results of said persons analysis. This would depend for example on how much of a positive or negative thinker you are (you see 3 people arguing today - you think it will be a bad day) etc. etc. |
I agree that generalizations can be flawed. That doesn't make them useless, though. Someone looking to come and work at a Hagwon in Korea would be wise to take the commentary on Korean negotiating style listed there into account. It may be imperfect, but it does match up with a non-trivial number of the real results we've seen bemoaned on this very forum. More generally, it could give you a very rough idea of what to expect when dealing with someone of another culture. Sure, they might completely defy that expectation, but if so then so long as you don't mistakenly treat generalization as absolute fact you're no worse off than you would have been with no information at all, and if they comply with your expectation, you're better off. Stereotypes are useful intellectual tools within their limits, the only real problem arises when they are either pushed past those limits or are used to justify unethical behavior.
| le-paul wrote: |
And by the way, I dont think I was upset when I posted my comment and I don't remember talking about the value of cultural diversity. Perhaps I did that in another thread and you could refresh my memory. In all earnest, I don't remember.
Maybe I did it in one of the both forums we both visit for example Historum? |
No, I don't remember you specifically ever doing it. Your reservations about stereotypes brought to mind things others have said on the matter, which in turn prompted my comment, which I should have specified. The way I expressed myself in that particular sentence was thoughtlessly unfair, and I apologize. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
| However, I do believe it is a little simplistic (and may not be productive) to approach a person from a different culture (in any situation let alone conducting business), with the basis of your judgement, and being armed only with, the possibility of that person being the embodiment of an almost child minded-like image of a stereotype. If anything, that would set you up to fail surely, wouldnt it? |
Yes, it would be a little simplistic. Cultural generalizations speak to the common trends between a large number of people, but cannot adequately grasp an individual. The fact that Koreans often enough "stretch the truth" during negotiations or contract formulation, for example, doesn't mean that any individual Korean does it. Such information is more something to bear in mind than something which one ought to allow to directly guide one's action.
| le-paul wrote: |
| And the patterns comment. In brief, unless it is conducted in a laboratory, clinical style test, the concept of 'recognising patterns' and interpreting them, is very much open to a humanistic analysis and therefore prone to being flawed ie - the results of said persons analysis. This would depend for example on how much of a positive or negative thinker you are (you see 3 people arguing today - you think it will be a bad day) etc. etc. |
I agree that generalizations can be flawed. That doesn't make them useless, though. Someone looking to come and work at a Hagwon in Korea would be wise to take the commentary on Korean negotiating style listed there into account. It may be imperfect, but it does match up with a non-trivial number of the real results we've seen bemoaned on this very forum. More generally, it could give you a very rough idea of what to expect when dealing with someone of another culture. Sure, they might completely defy that expectation, but if so then so long as you don't mistakenly treat generalization as absolute fact you're no worse off than you would have been with no information at all, and if they comply with your expectation, you're better off. Stereotypes are useful intellectual tools within their limits, the only real problem arises when they are either pushed past those limits or are used to justify unethical behavior.
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I generally agree.
Like you said, its important to recognise the basis, or at least our motivation or agenda, when 'stating' or 'using' generalised views (without wishing to rehash that debate - especially in view to challenging our stereotypes!) as a starting point for any kind of transaction/interaction.
If anything, it can help us to re- evaluate our prejudices. Its only when they 'confirm them' it becomes an issue (unless like you say, we're using that a tool).
Thats why I mentioned I have a problem with 'seeing patterns' in things (I always remember Christopher who would see a pattern of red cars on the way to school and then refuse to talk to anyone for the rest of the day - 'today is a bad day').
With the regard to the OP, I got the impression the author was almost 'encouraging' people to see outdated, almost 'farcical' stereotypes. And if they did use them (for business in this case) on occasions, they'd most probably be stuck with those outdated ideas. The problem is, its rare to find someone in the business world that is introspective enough (or has the luxury) to constantly question his own, core principles (or perhaps thats just my prejudice coming through).
We hear the phrase bandied around too often these days 'its just business' as if that justifies an immoral/selfish etc. act. In this case, an excuse to write a list of silly observations.
Maybe Im just a little old fashioned but I find stereotypes to be such an anachronism these days, and they rarely match anyone, anymore, anyway. lol
Anyways, its not important, but it was interesting what you wrote and I thought it deserved a reply.
So I was just saying... |
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