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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
2) how crappy the Ukrainian economy is.
Crimean citizens are now paid in Rubles, state salaries have been adjusted to Russian norms, pensions have been brought in line with Russian payments. There was basically no reason what so ever for the Crimean population to stay in Ukraine. Even if I hated Russians I'd have voted to exit Ukraine and get a raise. If you owned a house in Crimea the value has now doubled. The banks are more stable. Etc. It was a clear choice. Russian troops or not. |
This is it. That's why the vote in Crimea was so affirmative for Russia's annexation. The Ukrainian economy has been terrible for a long time, and its future under the heel of the International Monetary Fund looks bleak. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:18 am Post subject: |
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I'm impressed at how civilized the Russians and Ukrainians have been.
Hardly a shot fired, its been a case of intimidation and backing down. Most countries would have degenerated into a bloodbath already. |
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ersatzredux
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Location: Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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What if you threw a war and nobody came? Looks like the trap the neocons had so carefully set for Putin has come undone, and in the most humiliating way. Despite all the propaganda, despite the agent provocateurs, despite the BlackWater (or whatever they've renamed themselves) thugs, despite the b.s. about Russian forces on the border, it looks like Ukrainian soldiers are able to see and think for themselves. So much for stereotypes (or do they have Ukrainian jokes outside Western Canada?).
It's fun seeing Reuters and AP try to put a spin on what is obviously happening- that the armed forces they sent are defecting to the "pro-Russian militants", as soon as they get the chance.
So instead of giving Russia another Afghanistan, they seem to be delivering them Ukraine instead. All those billions spent, politicians bribed, bought or implanted journalists exposed, and all for naught.
Of course there's still a chance they will be able to get it on, but it seems even the rabid nationalist Western Ukrainians and the delusional "Otpor" trained kids have no appetite to be cannon fodder in a proxy war. Damn those commies for secular education and all that- can't even bribe them with 72 virgins like their usual proxies.
Interesting times indeed! |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| It's fun seeing Reuters and AP try to put a spin on what is obviously happening- that the armed forces they sent are defecting to the "pro-Russian militants", as soon as they get the chance. |
Neo-con train of thought:
1) Best case: Russia is a vassal of the Empire. Her people are destroyed and the government hands wealth over. The 90's in Russia are best case.
2) If 1 fails: Drum up a reason to destroy Russia (If we can't have it, burn it).
#1 is not likely so they're working on #2. #2 may involve the extinction of our species, so let's all hope Putin is the brilliant statesman he appears to be. We all know god damn well that the people running American policy are deranged asbergery bloodthirsty lunatics. The fruits of democracy. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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The Daily Prole:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2605578/Edward-Lucas-I-hope-Im-wrong-historians-look-say-start-World-War-III.html
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EDWARD LUCAS: I hope I'm wrong but historians may look back and say this was the start of World War III
'Vladimir Putin is striking at the heart of the West'
'We can chose to surrender any responsibility we have to protect Ukraine and the Baltic states'
'Or we can mount a last-ditch attempt to deter Russia from furthering its imperial ambitions'
'If we choose to resist Putin, we will risk a terrifying miltary escalation'
'I do not think it an exaggeration to say this could bring us to the brink of nuclear war' |
Etc. Buttering up the cannon-fodder for another war for freedom and democracy. The "heart of the West" (Ukraine?), "responsibility to protect", "Imperial Ambitions" (mirror, mirror), etc etc. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
The Daily Prole:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2605578/Edward-Lucas-I-hope-Im-wrong-historians-look-say-start-World-War-III.html
| Quote: |
EDWARD LUCAS: I hope I'm wrong but historians may look back and say this was the start of World War III
'Vladimir Putin is striking at the heart of the West'
'We can chose to surrender any responsibility we have to protect Ukraine and the Baltic states'
'Or we can mount a last-ditch attempt to deter Russia from furthering its imperial ambitions'
'If we choose to resist Putin, we will risk a terrifying miltary escalation'
'I do not think it an exaggeration to say this could bring us to the brink of nuclear war' |
Etc. Buttering up the cannon-fodder for another war for freedom and democracy. The "heart of the West" (Ukraine?), "responsibility to protect", "Imperial Ambitions" (mirror, mirror), etc etc. |
This is silly. I don't think that America really cares that much about Ukraine, and I think that this is kind of an unspoken undercurrent. If anything, I would be willing to bet that America is actually trying to restrain the Ukrainian forces.
I think that the lack of violence is because all the sides know what the real red lines are, and they aren't the red lines that America is saying out loud. If anything American bluster is to assure its other allies, I've looked at the actual sanctions, and they are a joke. Ukraine isn't in NATO, as long as there is no large amounts of blood spilled, nothing will happen. If Americans aren't willing to go to Syria (not saying that I believe they should) where there is a blood bath, they aren't going to go to Ukraine to fight a real army. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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You think it is silly because you are sensible.
The article is +/- 65% linkbait. It is not entirely linkbait.
Remember, Wesley Clark (D) and Dick Cheney (R) ordered Americans to fire on Russian troops. Bush stopped Cheney and that pop singer stopped Clark. Obama is stopping the neo-cons. I'm really glad that Obama is POTUS.
xxxx
This American fellow is having a very bad day:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFBU4GwBa1s&feature=youtu.be
I assume he's from Academi/Blackwater/Xi.
Last edited by Titus on Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Ukraine isn't in NATO, as long as there is no large amounts of blood spilled, nothing will happen. If Americans aren't willing to go to Syria (not saying that I believe they should) where there is a blood bath, they aren't going to go to Ukraine to fight a real army. |
Syria and Ukraine represent different things, of course.
Syria will never be part of nato or the eu but Ukraine represents the possibility of territorial expansion.
Did the cold war ever really end?.
What happens if this buffer zone gets removed will be interesting. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:31 am Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
You think it is silly because you are sensible.
The article is +/- 65% linkbait. It is not entirely linkbait.
Remember, Wesley Clark (D) and Dick Cheney (R) ordered Americans to fire on Russian troops. Bush stopped Cheney and that pop singer stopped Clark. Obama is stopping the neo-cons. I'm really glad that Obama is POTUS.
xxxx
This American fellow is having a very bad day:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFBU4GwBa1s&feature=youtu.be
I assume he's from Academi/Blackwater/Xi. |
I agree with your first assessment. For all the things I don't like about Obama, He isn't eager to go to war. Romney, I'm not sure about, but if we were with McCain...
As to the second video, it may be true, but I generally assume that if it is on youtube it has at least a 90% chance of being fake. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Ukraine isn't in NATO, as long as there is no large amounts of blood spilled, nothing will happen. If Americans aren't willing to go to Syria (not saying that I believe they should) where there is a blood bath, they aren't going to go to Ukraine to fight a real army. |
Syria and Ukraine represent different things, of course.
Syria will never be part of nato or the eu but Ukraine represents the possibility of territorial expansion.
Did the cold war ever really end?.
What happens if this buffer zone gets removed will be interesting. |
I've talked to people who were involved with NATO, and from the beginning, at least from what I've been told, there was wariness on their side about Ukraine and provoking Russia. To the E.U. thing, before this crisis, I don't get the impression that the Ukraine was a huge priority to them.
For America, you have to remember how important the Middle East is, and that Syria is really close to Israel, and the Iranian involvement, etc. Syria is a bigger priority, but it has been going on for awhile and the Ukraine thing is fresh and not settled yet.
The Cold War isn't really over, but it has changed. Russia is now a regional power, and is weak compared to China, and the whole domino theory and ideology stuff is gone. Now it is back to realism, power politics, and great power diplomacy. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| there was wariness on their side about ... provoking Russia. |
No-one seems to have told Obama.
Proxy wars are one thing but thats basically a direct challenge to Moscow.
Pretty irresponsible. Everybody knows that a US-Russia war wouldn't be "conventional" for long. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:10 am Post subject: |
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I could dump 100 links here here from American media.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/17/is-putin-s-next-move-to-take-over-odessa.html
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| Crimea is in Moscow’s hands. Deadly fighting has broken out in parts of Eastern Ukraine. And now there are signs that Russian President Vladimir Putin may have picked his next targets: First a small breakaway state in Moldova, west of Ukraine, where thousands of Moscow’s troops are already stationed; then its close neighbor Odessa, Ukraine’s third-largest city and its largest remaining port, where pro-Russian and pro-government groups are tangling. If forces loyal to Putin can successfully disrupt Odessa, it could effectively cut the county of Ukraine in two. |
The Russians are not organizing the uprising in the east, though they are no doubt supporting it in some way. Russia is not planning on Moldova or Odessa as the next target. There are no troops "massed" along the Ukrainian border.
There were no WMD's in Iraq, Iran does not have a nuclear weapons program, Assad did not fire chemical weapons against his own, etc. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| there was wariness on their side about ... provoking Russia. |
No-one seems to have told Obama. |
You took what I said out of context. I was referring to the time at the beginning of the expansion of NATO.
| Chaparrastique wrote: |
Proxy wars are one thing but thats basically a direct challenge to Moscow.
Pretty irresponsible. Everybody knows that a US-Russia war wouldn't be "conventional" for long. |
I don't have a problem with that. He is right, Russia doesn't want a military confrontation with the West, nobody, except a small number of nationalists or neocons or whatever, wants that on either side. My understanding of it is that it is more to reassure American allies around the world and as a deterrent than as a direct military threat. Putin is not stupid, I feel confident that he probably has a similar understanding of what was said.
I don't see it as irresponsible, it had to be said for the above reasons. As I mentioned to Titus, I very much doubt that Obama is pushing Ukraine to military options. If anything, America is probably trying to constrain all of this. Russia is a regional power, it can only be allowed to push so far, but I think everyone understands where the lines actually are. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
I could dump 100 links here here from American media.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/17/is-putin-s-next-move-to-take-over-odessa.html
| Quote: |
| Crimea is in Moscow’s hands. Deadly fighting has broken out in parts of Eastern Ukraine. And now there are signs that Russian President Vladimir Putin may have picked his next targets: First a small breakaway state in Moldova, west of Ukraine, where thousands of Moscow’s troops are already stationed; then its close neighbor Odessa, Ukraine’s third-largest city and its largest remaining port, where pro-Russian and pro-government groups are tangling. If forces loyal to Putin can successfully disrupt Odessa, it could effectively cut the county of Ukraine in two. |
The Russians are not organizing the uprising in the east, though they are no doubt supporting it in some way. Russia is not planning on Moldova or Odessa as the next target. There are no troops "massed" along the Ukrainian border.
There were no WMD's in Iraq, Iran does not have a nuclear weapons program, Assad did not fire chemical weapons against his own, etc. |
Are they arguing that Putin is going to try to take control over Transnistria? That ship has already long sailed. All that place is good for human and arms trafficking, a real sign of responsible international leadership. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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