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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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 Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
[q But whatever I think of him, it's still just some random guy on the internet making that assertion, right? He links to a naver page of other blogs that say stuff about the show (my Korean isn't great), but there's really no proof that the majority of Koreans denounced that program.
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He links to 10 internet pages of articles/blogs/sites of reports on the MBC program. Yes they are all Korean and (according to him) they are overwhelmingly denouncing the program.
And I never said the majority of KOREANS and neither did he.
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But you DID try to imply it by writing this:
| Quote: |
| "overwhelmingly" (as used in the context above) usually indicates a majority. |
So you were using a random OP-ED guy in a blog to try to prove a point that there could be a "majority" of Koreans against the program, in order to show that Scorpion is likely wrong in his concerns about the program. But now backing off.
Even if you still want to stand behind the blogger, his use of "overwhelmingly" is tenuous at best, even if he cited 50 blogs instead of 10, and the vast majority online denounced the program. Why?
...
1. Blogs aren't exactly the best reflection of everyday people on the street, and they usually have an angle.
2. That angle, in this case, is partly to make Korea and themselves look a bit more modern, and this program does the opposite of that and is an unbalanced hit piece, so actually, I wouldn't be too surprised if many or a "majority" of viewers publicly denounced it. (Although we have NO idea if that's even true.)
3. ON THE OTHER HAND... how do these same denouncers actually feel when they see foreigners together with Korean women? That's a different question and much harder to measure. But probably not as rosy as you might like to paint it.
Analogy: If there was a hit piece like that in the U.S. against black men, you can guarantee the "overwhelming" majority of white people would publicly denounce the program, but how many of those actually would be completely comfortable with mixed couples? Especially their daughters or friends? That's harder to measure, and we wouldn't jump all over a black guy who said he felt prejudice or odd reactions when dating a white woman. On the contrary, we'd give him the benefit of the doubt!
And that's in the U.S. where they've been working on race issues for quite some time. (A racist piece like that would never be allowed to be shown in the first place.) But now imagine a historically homogenous country like Korea... how liberal and open minded can they be expected to be? Sure, they are usually less confrontational in their prejudice/racism, and It's not like they're hunting down foreigners who date Korean women, but they aren't exactly welcoming it either, and some people can feel this and it would affect how they feel about the locals. |
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I'm With You
Joined: 01 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:57 am Post subject: Re: Living in Korea (but wanting little to do with Koreans). |
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| Scorpion wrote: |
When I first came to Korea some years ago I wanted the full immersion thing. For the first four months I avoided other foreigners.
How things have changed. Now I go out of my way to avoid Koreans as much as possible. The differences in culture, manners, general etiquette and priorities are just too much. I am not ashamed to say that I do not like the culture, and try to avoid interaction with Koreans as much as possible.
My question is this: those of you who have lived in other countries have you had similar attitudes towards the local population? If you did, why? If you did not, what is it about Korea that gets up so many Western peoples' noses? It's not that there aren't some good things about Korea, or even nice Koreans.
There are...but it just seems that there is too much that is objectionable. I also find it's just not worth the effort to interact with Koreans. It's above my pay scale. I resolved long ago to do my job, pay my taxes, respect the laws of the country, but to have as little interaction with Koreans as possible.
I think that, in the long term, this is the best survival technic for the long-term waygook.
Steelrails, would you agree? |
Sounds like Canada.
I was shocked to see huge, insular, pockets of culture (e.g. Richmond, Surrey) that do not interact with the original European Canadians when I visited a few years ago with a friend.
Many never even learn English, and do not have to.
ATM machines have Chinese or Punjabi service.
This was Vancouver. However, I left there with the impression that it was an Asian city and country. It was strange, indeed.
So, OP, no, I do not believe that your thinking is wrong. It seems natural. One does not have to embrace Canada or Canadians to live there or become a Canadian citizen even.
Why should it be any ddifferent for westerners who move to China or Japan? |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:13 am Post subject: Re: Living in Korea (but wanting little to do with Koreans). |
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| Scorpion wrote: |
When I first came to Korea some years ago I wanted the full immersion thing. For the first four months I avoided other foreigners. How things have changed. Now I go out of my way to avoid Koreans as much as possible. The differences in culture, manners, general etiquette and priorities are just too much. I am not ashamed to say that I do not like the culture, and try to avoid interaction with Koreans as much as possible. My question is this: those of you who have lived in other countries have you had similar attitudes towards the local population? If you did, why? If you did not, what is it about Korea that gets up so many Western peoples' noses? It's not that there aren't some good things about Korea, or even nice Koreans. There are...but it just seems that there is too much that is objectionable. I also find it's just not worth the effort to interact with Koreans. It's above my pay scale. I resolved long ago to do my job, pay my taxes, respect the laws of the country, but to have as little interaction with Koreans as possible. I think that, in the long term, this is the best survival technic for the long-term waygook.
Steelrails, would you agree? |
Nothing wrong at all with this post, it is the experience of the majority of foreigners who go to live in Korea for more than 2yrs. I made one very good friend in Korea who is a gay male who I know will never come out to his family or workmates. He understood the alienation of non Koreans from his society because as he said he was sick of the shallowness and hypocrisy of it.
My friend accepted the fact I was a straight foreigner and he also is very supportive of women as equals. He says an underlying problem of Korean society is contempt for women, you can come on here and slag that off but I have always thought that Korean men are often very conflicted. As my friend says, it's very male dominated to the point where what would be recognised elsewhere as significant repressed homosexuality is very much part of the society.
The prevalence of the idea that it's normal not to have a good sexual and emotional relationship with your wife (from marriages that are still often arranged in one fashion or another) but to go off and have sex with prostitutes instead and reserve your emotions for your male buddies while expressing hostility to gays is something I've always disliked in Korean society.
I think too many non Koreans, while coming from societies where materialism and prestige are also too important, have alternatives that are acceptable or an underlying philosophy that people are mostly free to decide what to do - to keep doing a part time job for more free time or to aim for a more serious job.
Most young Koreans sound like programmed robots in their expressed wish to work for a famous Korean company. It's fair to say that most Korean adults consider it somehow irresponsible to aim for a fulfilling life that doesn't involve aiming to be like the very conservative norm.
Those who deny the realities on this forum frequently have no answer try as they might to the undeniable shallowness of Korean society. I have told many non Koreans about the plastic surgery obsession in Korea. Yes, I worked with co workers who had upgrades like eye and nose and chin jobs and saw it as completely normal even though they were not aiming to be models or work in films or on tv, and just about all my female students said they would be having plastic surgery in the near future if they hadn't already.
Most non Koreans laugh in disbelief when they hear about the Korean craze for altering their faces and other parts of their bodies to look better. Despite apologists it is not normal to do that in other countries except if you are involved in the entertainment industry or very affluent. Generally non Koreans consider that if they have to go under the knife this way then it is a weakness, a self-esteem problem.
On the other aspects of Korean society that I and many non Koreans find unattractive, I find another prevailing norm is that of an unlikeable utilitarianism and selfishness. Again it is present elsewhere but the lack of self criticism and examination of this in Korea is something very off-putting.
There is also a strong attitude of 'we don't give a f---- if you are not our family' and the usual limitations of the East Asian need for heirarchy and control. Again those things are present in our societies but westerners are generally free to go their own ways and not do things at the whim of seniors or older men just because they have some cultural right to tell you to drop everything because they want you to spend some days sleeping on the floor of a sh-itty place with people so close you can smell their arsses.
The Koreans for the most have little concept of the right to privacy and to be left along without people feeling free to tell you what they feel you should be doing or how you should look (whether they know you or not) because they are supposedly higher in the pecking order. It's a pathetic life, really in Korea, and the non Korean who does as the OP does generally is benefiting more than losing.
And yes, Koreans are so used to hypocrisy that they go in great numbers to other countries to live, treat the locals as below them by trying to have areas where 'foreigners' meaning Brits, Canadians, Americans, Ozzies, NZealanders etc cannot have the same rights yet it is the Koreans who came into the host country, re-create Korea and shut themselves off from everybody else, yet slag off foreigners in Korea who are not given such generous visa conditions.
This does not help their children, there is a reason why most second generation onwards Korean Brits, Korean Americans/Canadians etc have less capable language abilities and social skills in the host culture they were born into and grew up in. Most of the recruiters for ESL jobs in Korea are a dead giveaway regarding their gypo status.
Their English is not quite right yet they were not born in Korea. In Canada especially they scream about job discrimination against them yet they do not have the language and social skills they should have as they are raised to be Korean although born and raised in Canada. |
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Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Living in Korea (but wanting little to do with Koreans). |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
When I first came to Korea some years ago I wanted the full immersion thing. For the first four months I avoided other foreigners. How things have changed. Now I go out of my way to avoid Koreans as much as possible. The differences in culture, manners, general etiquette and priorities are just too much. I am not ashamed to say that I do not like the culture, and try to avoid interaction with Koreans as much as possible. My question is this: those of you who have lived in other countries have you had similar attitudes towards the local population? If you did, why? If you did not, what is it about Korea that gets up so many Western peoples' noses? It's not that there aren't some good things about Korea, or even nice Koreans. There are...but it just seems that there is too much that is objectionable. I also find it's just not worth the effort to interact with Koreans. It's above my pay scale. I resolved long ago to do my job, pay my taxes, respect the laws of the country, but to have as little interaction with Koreans as possible. I think that, in the long term, this is the best survival technic for the long-term waygook.
Steelrails, would you agree? |
Nothing wrong at all with this post, it is the experience of the majority of foreigners who go to live in Korea for more than 2yrs. I made one very good friend in Korea who is a gay male who I know will never come out to his family or workmates. He understood the alienation of non Koreans from his society because as he said he was sick of the shallowness and hypocrisy of it.
My friend accepted the fact I was a straight foreigner and he also is very supportive of women as equals. He says an underlying problem of Korean society is contempt for women, you can come on here and slag that off but I have always thought that Korean men are often very conflicted. As my friend says, it's very male dominated to the point where what would be recognised elsewhere as significant repressed homosexuality is very much part of the society.
The prevalence of the idea that it's normal not to have a good sexual and emotional relationship with your wife (from marriages that are still often arranged in one fashion or another) but to go off and have sex with prostitutes instead and reserve your emotions for your male buddies while expressing hostility to gays is something I've always disliked in Korean society.
I think too many non Koreans, while coming from societies where materialism and prestige are also too important, have alternatives that are acceptable or an underlying philosophy that people are mostly free to decide what to do - to keep doing a part time job for more free time or to aim for a more serious job.
Most young Koreans sound like programmed robots in their expressed wish to work for a famous Korean company. It's fair to say that most Korean adults consider it somehow irresponsible to aim for a fulfilling life that doesn't involve aiming to be like the very conservative norm.
Those who deny the realities on this forum frequently have no answer try as they might to the undeniable shallowness of Korean society. I have told many non Koreans about the plastic surgery obsession in Korea. Yes, I worked with co workers who had upgrades like eye and nose and chin jobs and saw it as completely normal even though they were not aiming to be models or work in films or on tv, and just about all my female students said they would be having plastic surgery in the near future if they hadn't already.
Most non Koreans laugh in disbelief when they hear about the Korean craze for altering their faces and other parts of their bodies to look better. Despite apologists it is not normal to do that in other countries except if you are involved in the entertainment industry or very affluent. Generally non Koreans consider that if they have to go under the knife this way then it is a weakness, a self-esteem problem.
On the other aspects of Korean society that I and many non Koreans find unattractive, I find another prevailing norm is that of an unlikeable utilitarianism and selfishness. Again it is present elsewhere but the lack of self criticism and examination of this in Korea is something very off-putting.
There is also a strong attitude of 'we don't give a f---- if you are not our family' and the usual limitations of the East Asian need for heirarchy and control. Again those things are present in our societies but westerners are generally free to go their own ways and not do things at the whim of seniors or older men just because they have some cultural right to tell you to drop everything because they want you to spend some days sleeping on the floor of a sh-itty place with people so close you can smell their arsses.
The Koreans for the most have little concept of the right to privacy and to be left along without people feeling free to tell you what they feel you should be doing or how you should look (whether they know you or not) because they are supposedly higher in the pecking order. It's a pathetic life, really in Korea, and the non Korean who does as the OP does generally is benefiting more than losing.
And yes, Koreans are so used to hypocrisy that they go in great numbers to other countries to live, treat the locals as below them by trying to have areas where 'foreigners' meaning Brits, Canadians, Americans, Ozzies, NZealanders etc cannot have the same rights yet it is the Koreans who came into the host country, re-create Korea and shut themselves off from everybody else, yet slag off foreigners in Korea who are not given such generous visa conditions.
This does not help their children, there is a reason why most second generation onwards Korean Brits, Korean Americans/Canadians etc have less capable language abilities and social skills in the host culture they were born into and grew up in. Most of the recruiters for ESL jobs in Korea are a dead giveaway regarding their gypo status.
Their English is not quite right yet they were not born in Korea. In Canada especially they scream about job discrimination against them yet they do not have the language and social skills they should have as they are raised to be Korean although born and raised in Canada. |
Might I add that Korean women are complicit in the whole male dominance thing. I have heard countless women talk to their boyfriends, scolding them that it's their duty to fit the standard of what a male should be. As another poster said, they complain to their husbands that they aren't making enough money. |
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3DR
Joined: 24 May 2009
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:59 am Post subject: |
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I think there needs to be some understanding of what you guys think some "apologists" are (using that word for this discussion is silly in and of itself, but I digress.)
You mistake people who seem to be defending Korean culture as people who think there are no problems with it. I've been called a Korea warrior before, yet I have many issues and annoyances with the culture that I frequently vent out to my fiancee and she even agrees with me to certain extents.
What usually gets to people like us, are not the foreigners who are offering an honest, critical look at problems the culture may have, but the people who you can sense have an actual hatred of the people themselves to the point where they look down on them as some type of animals. It's like an air of superiority that frequently stems from many people of Western cultures
The way some people talk about Koreans as if they are all some broad, single entity is at times disgusting, yet these very same people will be the first to cry at any perceived slight against them by some random Korean they encountered that day.
There is a difference between.
"Korea has the highest car accident rate/deaths in the OECD. They really need to fix this because it's a problem."
and
"Why can't Koreans drive? They drive their kimchi cars all over the place and probably are trying to head to another Dokdo rally to defend best Korea." |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Living in Korea (but wanting little to do with Koreans). |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
Nothing wrong at all with this post, it is the experience of the majority of foreigners who go to live in Korea for more than 2yrs. I made one very good friend in Korea who is a gay male who I know will never come out to his family or workmates. He understood the alienation of non Koreans from his society because as he said he was sick of the shallowness and hypocrisy of it.
My friend accepted the fact I was a straight foreigner and he also is very supportive of women as equals. He says an underlying problem of Korean society is contempt for women, you can come on here and slag that off but I have always thought that Korean men are often very conflicted. As my friend says, it's very male dominated to the point where what would be recognised elsewhere as significant repressed homosexuality is very much part of the society.
The prevalence of the idea that it's normal not to have a good sexual and emotional relationship with your wife... |
Bingo. Now cue the few apologists to write lengthy critiques of this. I'd guess of the foreigners here, apologists are maybe 5% - but they write 100 times more so it looks like there is some debate, but there really isn't. The apologists are aberrations. I don't personally know any apologist. I'd guess the apologists were freaks back home and didn't fit in, so Korea is a step up. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Living in Korea (but wanting little to do with Koreans). |
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| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
| earthquakez wrote: |
Nothing wrong at all with this post, it is the experience of the majority of whites who go to live in America for more than 2yrs. I made one very good friend in America who is a gay black male who I know will never come out to his family or workmates. He understood the alienation of non-whites from his society because as he said he was sick of the shallowness and hypocrisy of it.
My friend accepted the fact I was a straight white man and he also is very supportive of women as equals. He says an underlying problem of black society is contempt for women, you can come on here and slag that off but I have always thought that black men are often very conflicted. As my friend says, it's very male dominated to the point where what would be recognised elsewhere as significant repressed homosexuality is very much part of the society.
The prevalence of the idea that it's normal not to have a good sexual and emotional relationship with your wife... |
Bingo. Now cue the few apologists to write lengthy critiques of this. I'd guess of the foreigners here, apologists are maybe 5% - but they write 100 times more so it looks like there is some debate, but there really isn't. The apologists are aberrations. I don't personally know any apologist. I'd guess the apologists were freaks back home and didn't fit in, so Korea is a step up. |
No lengthy critique necessary. We all know how bigoted, simple-minded, and uneducated a person would sound if we switched the identities around. If its true in those cases, its true here. And if "apologists" are indeed aberrations, then that just suggests that not being bigoted is just as much an aberration amongst people from back home as it is here. |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:24 pm Post subject: Re: Living in Korea (but wanting little to do with Koreans). |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
| earthquakez wrote: |
Nothing wrong at all with this post, it is the experience of the majority of whites who go to live in America for more than 2yrs. I made one very good friend in America who is a gay black male who I know will never come out to his family or workmates. He understood the alienation of non-whites from his society because as he said he was sick of the shallowness and hypocrisy of it.
My friend accepted the fact I was a straight white man and he also is very supportive of women as equals. He says an underlying problem of black society is contempt for women, you can come on here and slag that off but I have always thought that black men are often very conflicted. As my friend says, it's very male dominated to the point where what would be recognised elsewhere as significant repressed homosexuality is very much part of the society.
The prevalence of the idea that it's normal not to have a good sexual and emotional relationship with your wife... |
Bingo. Now cue the few apologists to write lengthy critiques of this. I'd guess of the foreigners here, apologists are maybe 5% - but they write 100 times more so it looks like there is some debate, but there really isn't. The apologists are aberrations. I don't personally know any apologist. I'd guess the apologists were freaks back home and didn't fit in, so Korea is a step up. |
No lengthy critique necessary. We all know how bigoted, simple-minded, and uneducated a person would sound if we switched the identities around. If its true in those cases, its true here. And if "apologists" are indeed aberrations, then that just suggests that not being bigoted is just as much an aberration amongst people from back home as it is here. |
Stupid is as stupid writes. The ol gypo logic rears its illogical head again.
As a bi-racial Brit who looks more white but has a direct and long line of Black African ancestry through my slave ancestors who came to Britain some time after WW2 from the Caribbean and who has relative in the US who went from there as slaves to the south in the USA, I call bullshizz on your misrepresentation of what others are pointing out about Korean culture.
The USA has a black President, the USA has affirmative action programs that have seen generations of blacks including Michelle Obama who did not initially have the scores to qualify for Princeton to go to the Ivy League higher education institutions. The USA's affirmative action programs were kickstarted in the late 60s. No matter what criticisms can be levelled at the society there, it was recognised that those kinds of programs help create minority middle classes to lift at least a reasonable percentage of them out of generational disadvantage.
The centres of industrialisation have died in the USA thanks to exporting jobs since the 80s to China and other places. That has done most of the damage to black American lower class people's opportunity to earn a decent living in former manufacturing powerhouses like Detroit. The same goes for the white lower classes.
Drug abuse in predominantly white counties in low socio economic areas in the US and dysfunction match that in black counties in low socio economic areas elsewhere in the US. Abuse at the hands of the police affects poorer whites too because like poorer blacks they're likely to be living in areas known for crime and drug dealing with police who have a certain mentality.
I have black relatives who I visit at least once a year in the US. They don't feel the need to keep talking about their alienation from white people in the US as they and many others are the products of govt policies that helped them go to university and become educated to compete for better jobs. They are the descendants of slaves too.
They would disagree with your use of the idea and word black to protect Koreans from scrutiny and criticism of their society. They have white friends and Asian friends, they know many black people who are living normal lives and don't live in lower socio economic projects.
They know there is discrimination but as they have said, to pretend that black people have made no progress in the USA since the late 1960s is a lie and often used to divide people of different racial backgrounds.
Western societies whose inhabitants originally were nearly all white or which are immigrant societies founded by whites not only allow non whites such as Koreans to live in big numbers in their countries - they allow them to live separately by their own choosing while benefiting from the host culture. Western societies often pay benefits and entitlements from public monies to anybody especially poorer arrivals such as refugees. A completey different reality from the Asian societies especially Korea and Japan.
Now for a reality check on Korea. Yes we can analyse Korean society and from our experiences and what honest Korean friends say, unapologetically make observations. Nowhere else have I been to work dinners in my jobs in different countries and seen men and women separated when dining as if it is usual that they want to segregate themselves. In Korea this happened at every job I worked at except for my last. Korea is a very homosocial country but certain kinds of touching are fairly obviously homosexual but explained away as Korean culture.
You'll run into Korean men who want to run their hands over your knees and legs, it is a theme of a number of posts over the yrs at the cafe from male foreign teachers, and as my gay K friend says, no, they're trying it on in many cases. Korean men and women especially in the age range of 35 up do not seem to have emotional relationships so much as arrangements because marriage is the goal. Marriage as the social requirement, yes it is still the case.
If you open your eyes in Korea you will see a lot of cruising going on in the public toilets, you'll notice a lot of men loitering around at night everywhere. Some are going to the numerous brothels even though they're married because Korean society generally has no problem with treating your wife that way, others are trying to pick other men up and usually they're married. Most Korean men over 30 are. High brothel use and prevalent brothel culture in a culture of marriage nearly always means the status of women is low.
I remember somebody here some time ago slagging off my friend saying that gays were not oppressed in Korean society and my friend was the unusual one for not coming out. That is completely false. As he says, if Korea is so unconcerned with open homosexuality or homosexuals right to live their lives the way they want discreetly, then why do nearly all of them get married in Korea? He refuses to. It would make his life easier in one way (at work for example) but he will not do it. As he says, Korean homosexuals would not marry if the society was reasonably tolerant towards gays and lesbians.
There are plenty of reasoned observations about the unappealing nature of Korean social norms that I could give and have in fact given in this thread and at other times. Harsh as reality is, non Koreans do not go to Korea and come back saying how wonderful Koreans are. The predominant observations usually are those made on the eslcafe because that is what Korean society is. There is a pattern when so many different people are saying the same thing.
And yes, the way to live in Korean society as a non Korean with all the nonsense is to live like the OP does. You can have a great time. You make money, you travel, you enjoy it when you do meet decent Koreans, and you be about your business. Koreans are raised to not care about people who are not part of their family or inner circle, it's their culture.
Respond in your own way as in do not be worried by this thinking. Go your own way outside of work and enjoy/save your money in equal amounts. Koreans have never come to the UK to benefit anybody other than themselves. Same story in other countries outside of Korea.
Yes we can make such statements because they are supported by what we experience in Korea, what our Korean friends experience, and what many Koreans themselves tell us about their views on black skin, white skin, tigi - a disgusting slur on children with one non Korean parent -, who are still generally not accepted as Korean and which is why some Korean parents openly support their children shunning those at school, the alleged high Korean IQ which is more the product of around 30 more hours per week education at school age than in western countries, how 'necessary' plastic surgery is, etc etc.
As a bi-racial man with Caribbean connections I can state that there is a prevailing anti homosexual culture among a significant section of the population in that area, a big fear of the 'batty man'.
I can and will say that because it is fact. I have some Somalian friends from my family neighborhood in London and they agree that Somalis are difficult people for host countries to take in as many believe that the laws of the countries they live in are irrelevant to them. What is important to them is their family clans, outside that they don't tend to care about other people. It is their culture, an honour culture of blood feuds.
So stop it already with your manipulative attempts to shelter Korean society and Koreans from analysis. |
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Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:12 am Post subject: |
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Odds on Steelrails can reply with a longer post. 
(not a complaint earthquakes, I enjoyed your post). |
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Jongno2bucheon
Joined: 11 Mar 2014
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Living in Korea (but wanting little to do with Koreans). |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
| earthquakez wrote: |
Nothing wrong at all with this post, it is the experience of the majority of whites who go to live in America for more than 2yrs. I made one very good friend in America who is a gay black male who I know will never come out to his family or workmates. He understood the alienation of non-whites from his society because as he said he was sick of the shallowness and hypocrisy of it.
My friend accepted the fact I was a straight white man and he also is very supportive of women as equals. He says an underlying problem of black society is contempt for women, you can come on here and slag that off but I have always thought that black men are often very conflicted. As my friend says, it's very male dominated to the point where what would be recognised elsewhere as significant repressed homosexuality is very much part of the society.
The prevalence of the idea that it's normal not to have a good sexual and emotional relationship with your wife... |
Bingo. Now cue the few apologists to write lengthy critiques of this. I'd guess of the foreigners here, apologists are maybe 5% - but they write 100 times more so it looks like there is some debate, but there really isn't. The apologists are aberrations. I don't personally know any apologist. I'd guess the apologists were freaks back home and didn't fit in, so Korea is a step up. |
No lengthy critique necessary. We all know how bigoted, simple-minded, and uneducated a person would sound if we switched the identities around. If its true in those cases, its true here. And if "apologists" are indeed aberrations, then that just suggests that not being bigoted is just as much an aberration amongst people from back home as it is here. |
Stupid is as stupid writes. The ol gypo logic rears its illogical head again.
As a bi-racial Brit who looks more white but has a direct and long line of Black African ancestry through my slave ancestors who came to Britain some time after WW2 from the Caribbean and who has relative in the US who went from there as slaves to the south in the USA, I call bullshizz on your misrepresentation of what others are pointing out about Korean culture.
The USA has a black President, the USA has affirmative action programs that have seen generations of blacks including Michelle Obama who did not initially have the scores to qualify for Princeton to go to the Ivy League higher education institutions. The USA's affirmative action programs were kickstarted in the late 60s. No matter what criticisms can be levelled at the society there, it was recognised that those kinds of programs help create minority middle classes to lift at least a reasonable percentage of them out of generational disadvantage.
The centres of industrialisation have died in the USA thanks to exporting jobs since the 80s to China and other places. That has done most of the damage to black American lower class people's opportunity to earn a decent living in former manufacturing powerhouses like Detroit. The same goes for the white lower classes.
Drug abuse in predominantly white counties in low socio economic areas in the US and dysfunction match that in black counties in low socio economic areas elsewhere in the US. Abuse at the hands of the police affects poorer whites too because like poorer blacks they're likely to be living in areas known for crime and drug dealing with police who have a certain mentality.
I have black relatives who I visit at least once a year in the US. They don't feel the need to keep talking about their alienation from white people in the US as they and many others are the products of govt policies that helped them go to university and become educated to compete for better jobs. They are the descendants of slaves too.
They would disagree with your use of the idea and word black to protect Koreans from scrutiny and criticism of their society. They have white friends and Asian friends, they know many black people who are living normal lives and don't live in lower socio economic projects.
They know there is discrimination but as they have said, to pretend that black people have made no progress in the USA since the late 1960s is a lie and often used to divide people of different racial backgrounds.
Western societies whose inhabitants originally were nearly all white or which are immigrant societies founded by whites not only allow non whites such as Koreans to live in big numbers in their countries - they allow them to live separately by their own choosing while benefiting from the host culture. Western societies often pay benefits and entitlements from public monies to anybody especially poorer arrivals such as refugees. A completey different reality from the Asian societies especially Korea and Japan.
Now for a reality check on Korea. Yes we can analyse Korean society and from our experiences and what honest Korean friends say, unapologetically make observations. Nowhere else have I been to work dinners in my jobs in different countries and seen men and women separated when dining as if it is usual that they want to segregate themselves. In Korea this happened at every job I worked at except for my last. Korea is a very homosocial country but certain kinds of touching are fairly obviously homosexual but explained away as Korean culture.
You'll run into Korean men who want to run their hands over your knees and legs, it is a theme of a number of posts over the yrs at the cafe from male foreign teachers, and as my gay K friend says, no, they're trying it on in many cases. Korean men and women especially in the age range of 35 up do not seem to have emotional relationships so much as arrangements because marriage is the goal. Marriage as the social requirement, yes it is still the case.
If you open your eyes in Korea you will see a lot of cruising going on in the public toilets, you'll notice a lot of men loitering around at night everywhere. Some are going to the numerous brothels even though they're married because Korean society generally has no problem with treating your wife that way, others are trying to pick other men up and usually they're married. Most Korean men over 30 are. High brothel use and prevalent brothel culture in a culture of marriage nearly always means the status of women is low.
I remember somebody here some time ago slagging off my friend saying that gays were not oppressed in Korean society and my friend was the unusual one for not coming out. That is completely false. As he says, if Korea is so unconcerned with open homosexuality or homosexuals right to live their lives the way they want discreetly, then why do nearly all of them get married in Korea? He refuses to. It would make his life easier in one way (at work for example) but he will not do it. As he says, Korean homosexuals would not marry if the society was reasonably tolerant towards gays and lesbians.
There are plenty of reasoned observations about the unappealing nature of Korean social norms that I could give and have in fact given in this thread and at other times. Harsh as reality is, non Koreans do not go to Korea and come back saying how wonderful Koreans are. The predominant observations usually are those made on the eslcafe because that is what Korean society is. There is a pattern when so many different people are saying the same thing.
And yes, the way to live in Korean society as a non Korean with all the nonsense is to live like the OP does. You can have a great time. You make money, you travel, you enjoy it when you do meet decent Koreans, and you be about your business. Koreans are raised to not care about people who are not part of their family or inner circle, it's their culture.
Respond in your own way as in do not be worried by this thinking. Go your own way outside of work and enjoy/save your money in equal amounts. Koreans have never come to the UK to benefit anybody other than themselves. Same story in other countries outside of Korea.
Yes we can make such statements because they are supported by what we experience in Korea, what our Korean friends experience, and what many Koreans themselves tell us about their views on black skin, white skin, tigi - a disgusting slur on children with one non Korean parent -, who are still generally not accepted as Korean and which is why some Korean parents openly support their children shunning those at school, the alleged high Korean IQ which is more the product of around 30 more hours per week education at school age than in western countries, how 'necessary' plastic surgery is, etc etc.
As a bi-racial man with Caribbean connections I can state that there is a prevailing anti homosexual culture among a significant section of the population in that area, a big fear of the 'batty man'.
I can and will say that because it is fact. I have some Somalian friends from my family neighborhood in London and they agree that Somalis are difficult people for host countries to take in as many believe that the laws of the countries they live in are irrelevant to them. What is important to them is their family clans, outside that they don't tend to care about other people. It is their culture, an honour culture of blood feuds.
So stop it already with your manipulative attempts to shelter Korean society and Koreans from analysis. |
So youre gay? Cool.
Just a quick question. Are korean gays catchers or pitchers? Did you come to Korea to be a catcher or a pitcher?
Also, do gays have sex twice every time? Isnt that tiring? It can be said its common for heterosexual sex u just go to sleep after ejaculation. But do gays have to do it twice?
Also, do you go to bath houses in Korea? Do you walk around with an erection then? |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:19 am Post subject: Re: Living in Korea (but wanting little to do with Koreans). |
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[quote="Jongno2bucheon"
So youre gay? Cool.
Just a quick question. Are korean gays catchers or pitchers? Did you come to Korea to be a catcher or a pitcher?
Also, do gays have sex twice every time? Isnt that tiring? It can be said its common for heterosexual sex u just go to sleep after ejaculation. But do gays have to do it twice?
Also, do you go to bath houses in Korea? Do you walk around with an erection then?[/quote]
Ah, I get it. This is supposed to be a 'clever' and 'baiting' post. How did you manage to register on the caf when you're clearly about 10 yrs old? |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:56 am Post subject: Re: Living in Korea (but wanting little to do with Koreans). |
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| I'm With You wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
When I first came to Korea some years ago I wanted the full immersion thing. For the first four months I avoided other foreigners.
How things have changed. Now I go out of my way to avoid Koreans as much as possible. The differences in culture, manners, general etiquette and priorities are just too much. I am not ashamed to say that I do not like the culture, and try to avoid interaction with Koreans as much as possible.
My question is this: those of you who have lived in other countries have you had similar attitudes towards the local population? If you did, why? If you did not, what is it about Korea that gets up so many Western peoples' noses? It's not that there aren't some good things about Korea, or even nice Koreans.
There are...but it just seems that there is too much that is objectionable. I also find it's just not worth the effort to interact with Koreans. It's above my pay scale. I resolved long ago to do my job, pay my taxes, respect the laws of the country, but to have as little interaction with Koreans as possible.
I think that, in the long term, this is the best survival technic for the long-term waygook.
Steelrails, would you agree? |
Sounds like Canada.
I was shocked to see huge, insular, pockets of culture (e.g. Richmond, Surrey) that do not interact with the original European Canadians when I visited a few years ago with a friend.
Many never even learn English, and do not have to.
ATM machines have Chinese or Punjabi service.
This was Vancouver. However, I left there with the impression that it was an Asian city and country. It was strange, indeed.
So, OP, no, I do not believe that your thinking is wrong. It seems natural. One does not have to embrace Canada or Canadians to live there or become a Canadian citizen even.
Why should it be any ddifferent for westerners who move to China or Japan? |
This 'immigrant's don't integrate' complaint is a bit ignorant. If you look at American history (North and South), anytime there are large waves of immigrants from various countries, it looks like they don't integrate. In reality it usually only takes one generation (their kids) to integrate. Once the numbers of that community's immigrants start trailing off it takes a mere generation (some 20-ish years) for their 'ethnic-communities' to wither-away.
A very recent example I can think of are the Japanese-Americans. Their immigrant numbers dropped off in the 50's/60's. Most young Japanese-Americans now are 3 or 4th generation and have out-married with other groups. And any Little-Tokyo's or Japantowns have either disappeared are on the verge of disappearing. |
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Stain
Joined: 08 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Living in Korea (but wanting little to do with Koreans). |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
[quote="Jongno2bucheon"
So youre gay? Cool.
Just a quick question. Are korean gays catchers or pitchers? Did you come to Korea to be a catcher or a pitcher?
Also, do gays have sex twice every time? Isnt that tiring? It can be said its common for heterosexual sex u just go to sleep after ejaculation. But do gays have to do it twice?
Also, do you go to bath houses in Korea? Do you walk around with an erection then? |
Ah, I get it. This is supposed to be a 'clever' and 'baiting' post. How did you manage to register on the caf when you're clearly about 10 yrs old?[/quote]
He really likes Korea and Koreans. Your words hurt him; therefore, he resorted to his comment, hoping it would hurt you. It's a common tactic, not only by defenders of Korea, but just about everyone online when someone posts something contrary to his or her convictions in a potent way. I am guilty of this, too. The problem is that, in an anonymous forum, nobody gets truly hurt by the personal counter attack, but it nevertheless still manages to ease the pain of the original attack. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| So stop it already with your manipulative attempts to shelter Korean society and Koreans from analysis. |
No one is sheltering it from analysis. But a driveby paragraph spewing a bunch of generalizations is not analysis. It is a driveby paragraph spewing a bunch of generalizations.
Now, your next post was certainly more than that, though there were points I disagreed with.
But I disagree that your view of Korea is the norm. I have known some people that had negative experiences and left. Some who had great ones and came back or stick around. And some who got their paycheck and left, neither dissatisfied nor overjoyed. One of the nice things about being in a small town is that you get to know every NET there and thus you don't get stuck in an echo chamber of Koreaboos or bashers. There's a diverse array of opinion out there. I mean you wouldn't know I was an apologist if you randomly met me and had no idea who I was. I argue here so I don't argue out there. Some people who complain here don't rant and rave out there. They're much more likely to be sympathetic and patient in the real world.
I do tend to look at people's actions. If things are truly as bad as people make them out to be, people leave. That's why some people might pull midnight runs. They have a crap hagwon and can't stand things here. If they complain a lot but don't really take any action, they either like to complain or things aren't as bad as they make them out to be. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
[q But whatever I think of him, it's still just some random guy on the internet making that assertion, right? He links to a naver page of other blogs that say stuff about the show (my Korean isn't great), but there's really no proof that the majority of Koreans denounced that program.
. |
He links to 10 internet pages of articles/blogs/sites of reports on the MBC program. Yes they are all Korean and (according to him) they are overwhelmingly denouncing the program.
And I never said the majority of KOREANS and neither did he.
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But you DID try to imply it by writing this:
| Quote: |
| "overwhelmingly" (as used in the context above) usually indicates a majority. |
So you were using a random OP-ED guy in a blog to try to prove a point that there could be a "majority" of Koreans against the program, in order to show that Scorpion is likely wrong in his concerns about the program. But now backing off.
. |
I never said or IMPLIED anything about a majority of Koreans. I said a majority of the people who saw it. Those are very different. I also qualified it by saying "apparently". Stop putting words in my mouth.
| Quote: |
| Only the Koreans that actually saw or heard about said report... apparently were. |
As for the guy he didn't just cite 10 blogs. He cited 10 PAGES OF BLOGS AND ARTICLES so yeah a lot more than 50.
And yes "overwhelming" generally refers to a majority.
Besides which it doesn't matter. Scorpion's claim was that Koreans were not outraged over issues like the MBC article. I merely posted a link that showed quite a number were. So regardless whether it was a majority of the PEOPLE WHO SAW IT (NOTE NOT "KOREANS") or not he is wrong. Full stop.
And it's not even the first time Koreans have criticized this kind of stuff
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2012/04/117_106042.html
| Quote: |
| Korean netizens, infuriated by the incident after news of angry foreigners spread through Twitter, posted comments on the Internet board of the program saying that the program should make a public apology. |
Anyway getting back to the MCB report, the guy stated "overwhelmingly" and given that he can read Korean and know what is going on...I'm going to take his word for it unless you have proof...as opposed to your speculative opinion.
And people call ME literal.... |
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