|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
|
 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:03 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The correct thing to do was to get on everyone on deck as quickly as possible, before the list became extreme |
So on a top heavy vessel that is struggling with its balance, your solution is to send 475 people's worth of weight on deck, potentially putting people at risk for either exacerbating the problem or falling overboard?
| Quote: |
| ut even with an extreme list, they have to be on deck to evacuate. There is no way around that. What you are saying is essentially this: "It could be dangerous on deck so I'll stay down here and drown in safety." |
Ships can sometimes stay severely listed for a long period of time. It's highly unlikely that the crew had time to figure out if and how quickly the ship would sink. You can't have 475 people on deck when they have to hold onto the wall to not fall all over the place. There aren't hand holds all over the deck to do that. Again, if the crew at the time thought that the ship might be able to limp on until rescue vessels arrived, then waiting in areas where restraints were available, might be as logical a thing to do as putting people on deck. As I said, with imperfect information there can be multiple logical courses of action.
The situation became untenable in about 7-10 minutes time and possibly earlier and very rapidly, after which movement (and therefore action) became virtually impossible. This is not a perfect parallel, but in an aircraft, loss of control and loss of movement can happen in a very short period of time. Things may appear relatively stable than deteriorate in a matter of seconds. You don't eject from the plane just because there is a bit of turbulence, event though that may end up being the only way to survive as after that the pilot may be put in a situation where he cannot physically recover.
Or another one that always gets argued over- Cop stops a suspect, suspect reaches for something, cop shoots him dead, suspect was reaching for his wallet. In this case, an undesirable outcome occurred. The suspect probably shouldn't have reached for his wallet, but then might have been doing so because that's what usually happens- you take out your ID and show the cops. The cop may have been quick to pull the trigger, but he has no idea what is coming out of that pocket and only a second or two to decide. Not shooting is a logical course of action. Shooting is a logical course of action. Running up and tackling him is a logical course of action. Under different circumstances, each may be the correct thing to do, and each may result in death and disaster. You have imperfect information, little time to make a decision, and no guarantee of success. This is a concept that shouldn't be hard to understand, but most people can't seem to grasp.
Again, you need to be careful not to apply information NOW available, but unavailable to the crew, when evaluating their decision making process and must account for logical, reasonable possibilities that failed to occur. |
Having passengers go on deck to prepare for evacuation was the right thing to do at the time with the information known then. It's really that simple.
But shovel on. Why stop now? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
drydell
Joined: 01 Oct 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
| So on a top heavy vessel that is struggling with its balance, your solution is to send 475 people's worth of weight on deck, potentially putting people at risk for either exacerbating the problem or falling overboard? |
Not knowing if this would or would not TBH - I did a cursory net search..
The ferry weighed 6,825 tonnes.
The combined weight of 475 people I estimate max 28.5 tonnes (estimation is generous as most were young)
Its not like all those people would have been moving in unison even - do you still think it would make a difference? The captain should obviously know whether it would be dangerous or not |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dairyairy
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| MedellinHeel wrote: |
| Not sure why the media and everyone keeps saying x still missing. Would be safe to assume all missing people have perished. Face reality. Survivors would be highly unlikely. |
That's just their official status until the body is recovered. Everyone knows the likely outcome but there's always hope that someone got out and made it to shore. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Okie from Muskogee
Joined: 30 Jan 2014
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
Government's lax regulation on overloading cargoes in passenger ships and passenger safety.
Ship owners greed to overload the ship.
Possibly, ship's captain and officers' greed to overload cargoes on their own to make some extra cash.
Ship's demise.
Passengers still had chance to escape when it started to sink/tilt.
Captain's bad decision to abandon his passengers and service crew so he can make his clear escape route.
One of the missing's parent said, "I am so sorry that you were born in Korea." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| MedellinHeel wrote: |
| Not sure why the media and everyone keeps saying x still missing. Would be safe to assume all missing people have perished. Face reality. Survivors would be highly unlikely. |
Missing as in body not recovered yet. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
metalhead
Joined: 18 May 2010
Location: Toilet
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
Granted I haven't taken many ferries in my life, but how safe exactly are they in other countries? A few months ago I took a four-hour ferry from Sweden to Finland, there were no safety videos or instructions as to what to do in an emergency - it was basically get on, go to buffet, eat and drink beer, wait for bar to open (international waters = duty free and thus cheaper booze), and go to top deck in crazy winds to smoke (would've been easy with the wind and choppy waves to end up in the ocean).
So how do other countries compare? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ginormousaurus
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Location: 700 Ft. Pulpit
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| metalhead wrote: |
Granted I haven't taken many ferries in my life, but how safe exactly are they in other countries? A few months ago I took a four-hour ferry from Sweden to Finland, there were no safety videos or instructions as to what to do in an emergency - it was basically get on, go to buffet, eat and drink beer, wait for bar to open (international waters = duty free and thus cheaper booze), and go to top deck in crazy winds to smoke (would've been easy with the wind and choppy waves to end up in the ocean).
So how do other countries compare? |
I took a ferry to China from Korea and someone took a crap in the shower. I would have liked to have tossed him in the ocean. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| metalhead wrote: |
Granted I haven't taken many ferries in my life, but how safe exactly are they in other countries? A few months ago I took a four-hour ferry from Sweden to Finland, there were no safety videos or instructions as to what to do in an emergency - it was basically get on, go to buffet, eat and drink beer, wait for bar to open (international waters = duty free and thus cheaper booze), and go to top deck in crazy winds to smoke (would've been easy with the wind and choppy waves to end up in the ocean).
So how do other countries compare? |
I know in those BC Ferries in Canada there is no safety video. Just get on, relax and wait till you get to your destination. If there was a problem, I'd probably go outside and follow the crowd. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| CentralCali wrote: |
| MedellinHeel wrote: |
| Not sure why the media and everyone keeps saying x still missing. Would be safe to assume all missing people have perished. Face reality. Survivors would be highly unlikely. |
Missing as in body not recovered yet. |
Also, it's common practice world wide. The US Army still have MIA's listed as far back as WWI. Until the body is recovered, and identified, it's considered 'missing'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| metalhead wrote: |
Granted I haven't taken many ferries in my life, but how safe exactly are they in other countries?
|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_maritime_disasters
There's a list of peacetime maritime disasters including the Sewol.
The worst is the Dona Paz in Philippines. There is a good documentary about the Dona Paz disaster on youtube.
In addition there are many smaller scale sinkings, crashes, fires etc. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jvalmer wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| MedellinHeel wrote: |
| Not sure why the media and everyone keeps saying x still missing. Would be safe to assume all missing people have perished. Face reality. Survivors would be highly unlikely. |
Missing as in body not recovered yet. |
Also, it's common practice world wide. The US Army still have MIA's listed as far back as WWI. Until the body is recovered, and identified, it's considered 'missing'. |
Don't they also have, "Missing-presumed dead", or is that just an unofficial saying?
Anyway, in the present case, I would probably stick with "Missing" for at least a little while longer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
neilio
Joined: 12 Oct 2010
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Sector7G wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| MedellinHeel wrote: |
| Not sure why the media and everyone keeps saying x still missing. Would be safe to assume all missing people have perished. Face reality. Survivors would be highly unlikely. |
Missing as in body not recovered yet. |
Also, it's common practice world wide. The US Army still have MIA's listed as far back as WWI. Until the body is recovered, and identified, it's considered 'missing'. |
Don't they also have, "Missing-presumed dead", or is that just an unofficial saying?
Anyway, in the present case, I would probably stick with "Missing" for at least a little while longer. |
Similar to innocent until proven guilty. Imagine they called them dead, a parent kills themselves, and the dead are discovered alive. Can't have that. But ya everyone knows they are dead, 99.9% that is. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Okie from Muskogee
Joined: 30 Jan 2014
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I just heard that they just recovered a dead foreigner who was not listed on the passenger manifest. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| drydell wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| So on a top heavy vessel that is struggling with its balance, your solution is to send 475 people's worth of weight on deck, potentially putting people at risk for either exacerbating the problem or falling overboard? |
Not knowing if this would or would not TBH - I did a cursory net search..
The ferry weighed 6,825 tonnes.
The combined weight of 475 people I estimate max 28.5 tonnes (estimation is generous as most were young)
Its not like all those people would have been moving in unison even - do you still think it would make a difference? The captain should obviously know whether it would be dangerous or not |
There's also the danger of falling containers and people falling overboard due to the list. Again, reports seem to indicate that the ship listed dramatically.
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/asth77/17698549/249534/249534_600.jpg
8:48- Situation begins. Sewol turns dramatically to the right. Ship begins to slightly list accompanied by a large bang (cargo?). The crew begins to try to correct the list. Apparently the degree of list is not severe enough to inhibit movement as the captain was able to return to the ship and the crew was able to still be mobile. Problem could potentially be corrected.
8:52 Sewol makes a second sharp turn. Someone calls emergency services in Korea to report the ship is "sinking".
8:55 List is already severe, crew reports severe problems with movement.
From the timeline and ship's course, as well as reports of a student calling the emergency number at 8:52, I can think we can make some conclusions.
1: This situation rapidly deteriorated at about 4 minutes in. The second sharp turn is probably indicative of a severe rolling of the ship. Movement by the passengers probably became close to impossible or at the very least severely restricted at that point.
2: The crew had about 4 minutes to decide whether to abandon ship and properly conduct an evacuation, during which it was not evident whether or not the ship would sink. At this time there may already have been loose cargo. Ordering people on deck while conducting emergency maneuvers and facing falling cargo might not be advisable. During these 4 minutes the crew is also trying to stabilize the ship, report in, and coordinate with the captain.
3: The ship never became stationary enough to deploy lifeboats until the situation had already deteriorated to the point where movement was inhibited. The ship was still underway as the crew was attempting to correct the list.
| Quote: |
Having passengers go on deck to prepare for evacuation was the right thing to do at the time with the information known then. It's really that simple.
But shovel on. Why stop now? |
They didn't have ANY information. They didn't know what caused the list- It could have just been a strong current. They didn't know if the ship was going to sink. The only information they had was the ship turning to the right and it listing.
So in those 4 minutes when a ship is listing and you potentially have loose cargo falling and your crew trying to stabilize the ship, you order people on deck where they may fall overboard and the ship hasn't even come to a stop whereby you are unable to launch life boats? What if in the process of ordering people on deck, 30 of them fall overboard? Now in the middle of a stabilization effort you're dealing with 30 people overboard? And what if you DO stabilize the ship and some of them drown?
In the absence of a confirmed sinking and being stationary to deploy lifeboats, the ship is the best lifeboat. It is better to stay on the ship than brave the waters. Putting people on deck jeopardizes their being able to stay on the ship. The Coast Guard decision is right- at about 10 minutes in with things showing no sign of improving and the ship is coming to a halt. But not within the first 4 minutes where everyone is trying to figure out what is going on and stabilize the ship. The crew needs clear passages and non-interference from passengers to perform their duties to determine the crisis and try and free the ship. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
| drydell wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| So on a top heavy vessel that is struggling with its balance, your solution is to send 475 people's worth of weight on deck, potentially putting people at risk for either exacerbating the problem or falling overboard? |
Not knowing if this would or would not TBH - I did a cursory net search..
The ferry weighed 6,825 tonnes.
The combined weight of 475 people I estimate max 28.5 tonnes (estimation is generous as most were young)
Its not like all those people would have been moving in unison even - do you still think it would make a difference? The captain should obviously know whether it would be dangerous or not |
There's also the danger of falling containers and people falling overboard due to the list. Again, reports seem to indicate that the ship listed dramatically.
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/asth77/17698549/249534/249534_600.jpg
8:48- Situation begins. Sewol turns dramatically to the right. Ship begins to slightly list accompanied by a large bang (cargo?). The crew begins to try to correct the list. Apparently the degree of list is not severe enough to inhibit movement as the captain was able to return to the ship and the crew was able to still be mobile. Problem could potentially be corrected.
8:52 Sewol makes a second sharp turn. Someone calls emergency services in Korea to report the ship is "sinking".
8:55 List is already severe, crew reports severe problems with movement.
From the timeline and ship's course, as well as reports of a student calling the emergency number at 8:52, I can think we can make some conclusions.
1: This situation rapidly deteriorated at about 4 minutes in. The second sharp turn is probably indicative of a severe rolling of the ship. Movement by the passengers probably became close to impossible or at the very least severely restricted at that point.
2: The crew had about 4 minutes to decide whether to abandon ship and properly conduct an evacuation, during which it was not evident whether or not the ship would sink. At this time there may already have been loose cargo. Ordering people on deck while conducting emergency maneuvers and facing falling cargo might not be advisable. During these 4 minutes the crew is also trying to stabilize the ship, report in, and coordinate with the captain.
3: The ship never became stationary enough to deploy lifeboats until the situation had already deteriorated to the point where movement was inhibited. The ship was still underway as the crew was attempting to correct the list.
| Quote: |
Having passengers go on deck to prepare for evacuation was the right thing to do at the time with the information known then. It's really that simple.
But shovel on. Why stop now? |
They didn't have ANY information. They didn't know what caused the list- It could have just been a strong current. They didn't know if the ship was going to sink. The only information they had was the ship turning to the right and it listing.
So in those 4 minutes when a ship is listing and you potentially have loose cargo falling and your crew trying to stabilize the ship, you order people on deck where they may fall overboard and the ship hasn't even come to a stop whereby you are unable to launch life boats? What if in the process of ordering people on deck, 30 of them fall overboard? Now in the middle of a stabilization effort you're dealing with 30 people overboard? And what if you DO stabilize the ship and some of them drown?
In the absence of a confirmed sinking and being stationary to deploy lifeboats, the ship is the best lifeboat. It is better to stay on the ship than brave the waters. Putting people on deck jeopardizes their being able to stay on the ship. The Coast Guard decision is right- at about 10 minutes in with things showing no sign of improving and the ship is coming to a halt. But not within the first 4 minutes where everyone is trying to figure out what is going on and stabilize the ship. The crew needs clear passages and non-interference from passengers to perform their duties to determine the crisis and try and free the ship. |
You're needlessly complicating what is an obvious decision in order to defend the crew for not making that decision.
They hesitated and hesitated and hesitated, and now people are needlessly dead.
It's Korean culture to avoid making a decision at all costs. Well, in this case, the cost is all too obvious.
Just man up and admit you're wrong. Or at the very least go derail another thread, casey jones. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
