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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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 Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:10 am Post subject: |
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Have you seen the Times article. It seems to be what this speculation is based on, but at least for me all the relevant stuff is behind a paywall. Maybe they have some proof, but it seems highly unlikely they would take that next step, especially considering how weak the current sanctions are.
| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| It's not like the fellow earned tens of billions of dollars through hard work after all. |
Neither did all the thieving american and European central bankers who profited by sparking the global financial crisis.
Has putin been convicted of genocide? or has his crime been to defy the west?
The west has been busy constructing a system by which they can destroy anyone - including foreign nations and their leaders- who does not fall into line with their agenda. |
It isn't really so much the central bankers as it is private bankers who profited from the global financial crisis, and I agree, they should be punished. Their guilt doesn't make Putin any less personally corrupt. Why bring up genocide, who even mentioned that?
As to the last bit, maybe Putin is jealous, but its not like he isn't interested in similar things. He does have a lot of energy that a lot of countries depend on, and has used it for political purposes in the past.
I get it, you hate the west, and are happy that someone is standing up to them. Putin plays similar games, but with much less power. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Why bring up genocide, who even mentioned that?. |
Fox tried to equate putin to all the heinous abusers that have earned asset freezes.
Which is absurd. The guy is very popular with his people, and crimea was a democratic referendum at the request of the people.
He's not really all about standing up to the west, he's just trying to maintain what he has. |
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Jongno2bucheon
Joined: 11 Mar 2014
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Why bring up genocide, who even mentioned that?. |
Fox tried to equate putin to all the heinous abusers that have earned asset freezes.
Which is absurd. The guy is very popular with his people, and crimea was a democratic referendum at the request of the people.
He's not really all about standing up to the west, he's just trying to maintain what he has. |
Putin wants to impress his new 30 year old younger wife.
Youre helping him. Why dont u clean putins pen.is for him before he puts it inside another hot young one.  |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
Which is absurd. The guy is very popular with his people, and crimea was a democratic referendum at the request of the people.
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I'm pretty sure that having good poll numbers is not a factor taken into account in the Swiss law which allows the freezing of the accounts of foreign leaders, but admittedly, I haven't read the text of the law. |
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:29 am Post subject: |
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There was an old bastard named Lenin
Who did two or three million men in
That’s a lot to have done in
But where he did one in
That old bastard Stalin did ten in
Robert Conquest |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| So the US controls switzerlands banking industry? if it becomes obvious that american politicians can tamper with it at will then surely there will be a flood of people pulling their assetts out of that country. |
National leaders who got rich stealing money from their people have had their Swiss funds frozen under the Restitution of Illicit Assets Act before. It would hardly be beyond imaginging that Vladimir Putin might run into a similar situation if tensions don't decrease. It's not like the fellow earned tens of billions of dollars through hard work after all. |
There is no evidence he has "tens of billions" or anything similar. It is propaganda.
If he did, he is not dumb enough to use the Western banking system to hold it. I mean, who keeps billions in CASH. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
There is no evidence he has "tens of billions" or anything similar. It is propaganda. |
Perhaps, or perhaps you simply very much want it to be. I'm indifferent; the specific figure isn't especially important to me. Like many major politicians, there is little question that he has a considerable amount of unearned wealth. You'd be fooling yourself to think he's some "working man" scraping by on his presidential salary, so it's only a question of how much he's embezzled using his authority.
| Titus wrote: |
| If he did, he is not dumb enough to use the Western banking system to hold it. I mean, who keeps billions in CASH. |
I agree he's unlikely to have all, or even most, of his wealth in cash. But, if he doesn't have any appreciable sum of cash or investments anywhere the west can touch them, then he's got nothing to worry about vis a vis that wealth being frozen, right? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Titus wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| So the US controls switzerlands banking industry? if it becomes obvious that american politicians can tamper with it at will then surely there will be a flood of people pulling their assetts out of that country. |
National leaders who got rich stealing money from their people have had their Swiss funds frozen under the Restitution of Illicit Assets Act before. It would hardly be beyond imaginging that Vladimir Putin might run into a similar situation if tensions don't decrease. It's not like the fellow earned tens of billions of dollars through hard work after all. |
There is no evidence he has "tens of billions" or anything similar. It is propaganda.
If he did, he is not dumb enough to use the Western banking system to hold it. I mean, who keeps billions in CASH. |
While I agree he's unlikely to have all, or even most, of his wealth in cash, you're fooling yourself if you think he's some "working man" scraping by on his presidential salary. The specific figure isn't especially important: like many major politicians, there is little question that he has a considerable amount of unearned wealth. But, if he doesn't have any appreciable sum of cash or investments anywhere the west can touch them, then he's got nothing to worry about vis a vis that wealth being frozen, right? |
Actually most corrupt leaders keep their billions outside of their own countries so several reasons. Its much better to have money in American dollars than whatever their currency is, (rubbles included), If something happens it is easier to hide when people try to re-nationalize the money (i.e. Mubarak who a few years ago probably seemed pretty safe), It's much easier to spend and move around if it is in the international system, etc. Maybe Putin has no money outside of Russia, but it would be kind of surprising, but even in that case if the US really wanted to they could cut off any bank that does business with Putin from the international financial system by invoking section 311 of the Patriot act, more or less isolating him. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| I slightly reformatted my post! |
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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chellovek
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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Probably late to say this now given the thread has run on....
I was in Crimea for a bit in 2011 and there were a lot of Russian flags around, especially in Sevastopol and there was graffiti on buildings that would translate as "Crimea is Russian territory", etc. At the top of Lenin Street in Sevastopol they even had old Soviet-style public displays up (at least when I was there) of local officials, replete with the ol' hammer and sickle.
If the Russians were "invading" or "subverting" Crimea they'd have been pushing on an open door in my opinion. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Titus wrote: |
There is no evidence he has "tens of billions" or anything similar. It is propaganda. |
Perhaps, or perhaps you simply very much want it to be. |
There has been no evidence presented.
Condoleezza Rice said she was told of the billions by Russian opposition. The Russian opposition says he's the richest man in Europe. The Russian opposition says all kinds of things. The Russian opposition is an American proxy. In a sense, America is telling America that Putin is a bad, bad man.
| Quote: |
| While I agree he's unlikely to have all, or even most, of his wealth in cash, you're fooling yourself if you think he's some "working man" scraping by on his presidential salary. |
There is a big difference between Tens Of Billions!! and a few side deals. Politicians get rich through corruption. Like Jean Chretien, who was a civil servant his whole life but managed to acquire 20million or so. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
There has been no evidence presented. |
Well, there have been accounts given. I agree that's not the same as evidence, but the accounts are not especially unbelievable either, unless one wishes to believe Mr. Putin to be a man of incredible virtue. Almost all of history is a game of people grabbing as much as they can, even without need. Putin has been in a position to have grabbed very much. Maybe tens of billions is too much. Maybe it's "only" billions. Maybe it's "only" hundreds of millions. But whatever it is, it's vastly more than his salary would justify. Perhaps a lower figure would have less propaganda value as you put it, but that's of little importance to me. "Hey, I only stole some from my people," is not exculpatory in my eyes. Sometimes your support for Putin is persuasive, but if a politician is to have a "Cato the Younger" style presumption of innocence regarding corruption, he must earn it. Putin has not. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Titus wrote: |
There has been no evidence presented. |
Well, there have been accounts given. I agree that's not the same as evidence, but the accounts are not especially unbelievable either, unless one wishes to believe Mr. Putin to be a man of incredible virtue. Almost all of history is a game of people grabbing as much as they can, even without need. Putin has been in a position to have grabbed very much. Maybe tens of billions is too much. Maybe it's "only" billions. Maybe it's "only" hundreds of millions. But whatever it is, it's vastly more than his salary would justify. Perhaps a lower figure would have less propaganda value as you put it, but that's of little importance to me. "Hey, I only stole some from my people," is not exculpatory in my eyes. Sometimes your support for Putin is persuasive, but if a politician is to have a "Cato the Younger" style presumption of innocence regarding corruption, he must earn it. Putin has not. |
In 2013 his official salary was $101,000. I don't think that he even necessarily has to have billions stashed away for himself when he controls state money.
| Quote: |
| Among the 20 residences available to the Russian president are Constantine Palace, a Czarist-era estate on the Gulf of Finland restored at the cost of tens of millions of dollars, a ski lodge in the Caucasus Mountains and a Gothic revival palace in the Moscow region. The president also has at his disposal 15 helicopters, 4 spacious yachts and 43 aircraft, including the main presidential jet, an Ilyushin whose interior is furnished with gold inlay by artisans from the city of Sergiyev Posad, an Airbus and a Dassault Falcon. The 43 aircraft alone are worth an estimated $1 billion, the report says. |
| Quote: |
| present enlarged photographs of the Russian leader’s wrist during meetings and public appearances, revealing a variety of expensive watches, 11 in all, worth $687,000 at retail — about six times Mr. Putin’s annual salary. |
| Quote: |
| In response to a written query, the Kremlin’s press office said Mr. Putin’s spokesman, Dmitri S. Peskov, was on vacation and unable to respond to the substance of the report. In a response reported by Kommersant, however, Mr. Peskov said the residences, aircraft and cars were government property used lawfully by the president. |
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/28/world/europe/for-russia-president-vladimir-putin-report-says-perks-are-piling-up.html?_r=0 |
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