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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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You said you didn't surf, jrb.
Then obviousyy you couldn't begin to understand what was happening in HB.
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
I think it's fair to look at culture, but in this case I don't believe it greatly affected the situation in the way many people are saying. Kids were told to stay in their rooms, and I think most kids from most countries would have followed that order. What I do think is more unique to Korean culture is the obvious lack of safety training and preparedness. I would also add the corruption that apparently led to lax safety checks and crew training. Those two things are indicative of this culture more than anything else in this situation.
Some people think culture is this untouchable way of life handed down by god. Well, sorry. Culture was created by humans and changes at the whims of those humans. We can thus criticize it as we want.
Some people are so ready to jump in with tragedies in other countries to muddy the waters. They can't accept that Korea has problems while at the same time other countries have problems. And they talk like culture is never an issue when we discuss even our home countries. When there is a shooting in the US many people bring up the 'gun culture' of the US. After 9/11 people talked about how the US has a culture of imperialism. After terrorist attacks in Europe people talked about segregation of Muslims and other communities in those cities. After the Oslo massacre people talked about the rise of extreme right wing nuts in Northern Europe. People talk about these things all the time, and then some people who then scream "insensitivity!" and that no is to blame. They call themselves 'patriots' and just like some posters here, they tell us if we try to find root causes for these events we're just letting the bad guys win or we hate our countries. These people refuse to accept that culture has a hand in most tragedies, and can't allow others to investigate how to minimize these terrible things in the future. So instead it's just that the terrorists hate freedom. The shooter had mental issues. Muslims are evil. And now, the ship sank and the captain is the only selfish Korean who has ever lived and none of it has anything to do with the culture these people were raised in.
Right. |
Well those things certainly do happen, but as you yourself wrote, people in America don't say it's "American culture", they say it's "gun culture". Look at the things you mentioned, you didn't say "British culture" or "French culture" when talking about those things, you said "Culture of Imperialism". It wasn't Norwegian culture, it was "A culture of right-wing extremism".
I think we can certainly say this a product of a "Culture of corruption" within Korea. But that's not the same as saying "Korean culture is corrupt" anymore than you can say "British culture is Imperialist".
As I've repeatedly said, the problem with the culture argument is that people who use to explain things can use it to explain anything and everything, even contradictory actions. If a Korean person is driving to slow, the cultural explanation is "Korea in their own bubble, not caring about anyone else". If they speed it's "a culture of balli balli" and if they're going exactly the speed limit it's "a culture of mindless obedience to authority". How can culture be the reason for 3 completely different outcomes? Would we say use culture to explain speeders, slow-pokes, and legal-beagles back home? It's not rational or scientific, it's creative writing without foundation. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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I think we can certainly say this a product of a "Culture of corruption" within Korea. But that's not the same as saying "Korean culture is corrupt" anymore than you can say "British culture is Imperialist".
To be fair, I don't think there are a lot of people saying Korean culture is corrupt. Just that korean culture played a part in this tragedy (which is what you are saying as well). |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| mayorgc wrote: |
I think we can certainly say this a product of a "Culture of corruption" within Korea. But that's not the same as saying "Korean culture is corrupt" anymore than you can say "British culture is Imperialist".
To be fair, I don't think there are a lot of people saying Korean culture is corrupt. Just that korean culture played a part in this tragedy (which is what you are saying as well). |
Well, I'm not even sure to say that "Korean culture" was a reason. Certainly one can make a fair case for a "culture of corruption within Korea" but that's not the same as Korean culture.
The problem with the culture argument is that it is very hard to prove, highly subjective, and seems to have little basis beyond media speculation and fancy writing. This is why our legal system rejected such ideas. Blaming culture is at best just a step above trial by combat, Dred Scott, and supernatural testimony. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Well, I'm not even sure to say that "Korean culture" was a reason. Certainly one can make a fair case for a "culture of corruption within Korea" but that's not the same as Korean culture. |
So what is Korean culture? Can you give an example of one negative and one positive event in Korea's recent history which could be attributed at least partially to Korean culture? |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
I think it's fair to look at culture, but in this case I don't believe it greatly affected the situation in the way many people are saying. Kids were told to stay in their rooms, and I think most kids from most countries would have followed that order. What I do think is more unique to Korean culture is the obvious lack of safety training and preparedness. I would also add the corruption that apparently led to lax safety checks and crew training. Those two things are indicative of this culture more than anything else in this situation.
Some people think culture is this untouchable way of life handed down by god. Well, sorry. Culture was created by humans and changes at the whims of those humans. We can thus criticize it as we want.
Some people are so ready to jump in with tragedies in other countries to muddy the waters. They can't accept that Korea has problems while at the same time other countries have problems. And they talk like culture is never an issue when we discuss even our home countries. When there is a shooting in the US many people bring up the 'gun culture' of the US. After 9/11 people talked about how the US has a culture of imperialism. After terrorist attacks in Europe people talked about segregation of Muslims and other communities in those cities. After the Oslo massacre people talked about the rise of extreme right wing nuts in Northern Europe. People talk about these things all the time, and then some people who then scream "insensitivity!" and that no is to blame. They call themselves 'patriots' and just like some posters here, they tell us if we try to find root causes for these events we're just letting the bad guys win or we hate our countries. These people refuse to accept that culture has a hand in most tragedies, and can't allow others to investigate how to minimize these terrible things in the future. So instead it's just that the terrorists hate freedom. The shooter had mental issues. Muslims are evil. And now, the ship sank and the captain is the only selfish Korean who has ever lived and none of it has anything to do with the culture these people were raised in.
Right. |
Well those things certainly do happen, but as you yourself wrote, people in America don't say it's "American culture", they say it's "gun culture". Look at the things you mentioned, you didn't say "British culture" or "French culture" when talking about those things, you said "Culture of Imperialism". It wasn't Norwegian culture, it was "A culture of right-wing extremism".
I think we can certainly say this a product of a "Culture of corruption" within Korea. But that's not the same as saying "Korean culture is corrupt" anymore than you can say "British culture is Imperialist".
As I've repeatedly said, the problem with the culture argument is that people who use to explain things can use it to explain anything and everything, even contradictory actions. If a Korean person is driving to slow, the cultural explanation is "Korea in their own bubble, not caring about anyone else". If they speed it's "a culture of balli balli" and if they're going exactly the speed limit it's "a culture of mindless obedience to authority". How can culture be the reason for 3 completely different outcomes? Would we say use culture to explain speeders, slow-pokes, and legal-beagles back home? It's not rational or scientific, it's creative writing without foundation. |
Why would people native to a certain land describe that land by its name? Why would Americans say, "American culture"? They would just say "our culture" or "culture" because they're already in it, it's redundant. As a Canadian we certainly say "American culture" when talking about gun crimes there, for example. It's like if you were visiting my house I wouldn't say, "I'm going to MY kitchen now." The fact that we're in my house already assumes that I'm going to my kitchen. But I might ask, "Does YOUR kitchen have an oven?" because I'm being specific about an outside object.
In any event, you're just arguing semantics. I've seen in threads here you having a problem with people bringing up Confucianism, but that's not even originally Korean. Isn't that the same as saying 'gun culture' when referring to the US?
You're also doing what you've become famous for and merging several different people's opinions into one strawman argument that you can easily counter. You gave three examples of what various different people have said about many different situations and then concluded that this cherry picked Voltron of 'haters' cannot defend their position. Well, I'm sure I can take what you've said along with 10 other posters here that I get to choose and find inconsistencies among all of your comments over time, too. I'm not going to sit here and defend what these other people said, if anyone actually said those things and you're not just making it up (yet to see any actual quotes or proof of these 'arguments' anywhere). If you want to comment on what I said feel free though.
Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You have your agenda and aren't interested in facts, free flows of ideas or intelligent debate. You disgustingly went on for how many pages in the main thread about this defending the captain simply because he's Korean and most people are not despite the fact that the majority of Koreans find his actions abhorrent and criminal. So think whatever you want about what I said, it's really not that important.
We all look forward to your 74 posts each with 19 paragraphs in an effort to derail yet another thread and shut down any discussions about Korea. I've done my part by responding to you, stupidly. I'll come back in the morning to see how this thread is 15 pages and suddenly everyone is talking about 9/11 or blackjack or whatever. |
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Jongno2bucheon
Joined: 11 Mar 2014
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
You said you didn't surf, jrb.
Then obviousyy you couldn't begin to understand what was happening in HB.
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Im just going with it for now.
Clearly, there is a culture of violence and shootings when whites dont get what they want.
Its a problem that white leaders do need to address, before it is too late. Just ask Sandy Hook if they wished white leaders addressed the culture of angry violence. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| Jongno2bucheon wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
You said you didn't surf, jrb.
Then obviousyy you couldn't begin to understand what was happening in HB.
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Im just going with it for now.
Clearly, there is a culture of violence and shootings when whites dont get what they want.
Its a problem that white leaders do need to address, before it is too late. Just ask Sandy Hook if they wished white leaders addressed the culture of angry violence. |
The shooter at Sandy Hook was mentally disturbed.
If whites resorted to violence whenever they didn't get what they wanted, wouldn't there be a lot of injured hagwon owners?
And own up, it those Hollywood movies you said you used to buy that are what's behind violence in the U.S. I'll be back, indeed.  |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Well, I'm not even sure to say that "Korean culture" was a reason. Certainly one can make a fair case for a "culture of corruption within Korea" but that's not the same as Korean culture. |
So what is Korean culture? Can you give an example of one negative and one positive event in Korea's recent history which could be attributed at least partially to Korean culture? |
The delay in returning fire when NK shelled Yeongpyong would be a negative example.
A positive event would be the gold donations during the IMF crisis, albeit with some qualifications. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:02 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| So what is Korean culture? Can you give an example of one negative and one positive event in Korea's recent history which could be attributed at least partially to Korean culture? |
I can't really think of one. One way or the other. I really do like to eschew the cultural argument as Korea has joined the capitalist McWorld consumer global society. Outside of the Middle East and tribal societies in South Asia and Africa, and there I think it is often exaggerated as well, I really don't see much profound difference culturally with people. A lot of those differences are superficial, and those that aren't are often more economic based- take for example people living with their families. How much of that is culture and how much of that is economics?
Of course theirs small things, but as far as major cultural forces causing transformative events in society, I don't see it that much. Often differences that do exist are legacy events that structurally are in place. Take for example, guns in America- I don't see it as "American culture". Too many people do not own guns and want to see their severe restriction to justify calling part of American culture. At best, it's a facet.
Over the years I've mentioned this repeatedly in my posts over the years how I believe that cultures are much more similar than different, how people basically follow the same patterns of behavior the world over, how in terms of cultural evolution all cultures are basically at the same point (if cultural development was the length my forearm, everyone is jockeying for position on the third knuckle).
And again, I really think its hard to prove scientifically and rationally that culture was a reason, especially in cases like these. I put as much stock into culture being the cause of this as I would "the occult" being responsible for some serial killings. We see this in human behavior- whenever there is a big tragedy there is a tendency to blame large, unseen forces- conspiracies, the occult, millions of Mexicans bringing in Hashish, and culture.
| Quote: |
| Why would people native to a certain land describe that land by its name? Why would Americans say, "American culture"? They would just say "our culture" or "culture" because they're already in it, it's redundant. As a Canadian we certainly say "American culture" when talking about gun crimes there, for example. It's like if you were visiting my house I wouldn't say, "I'm going to MY kitchen now." The fact that we're in my house already assumes that I'm going to my kitchen. But I might ask, "Does YOUR kitchen have an oven?" because I'm being specific about an outside object. |
Right, but even when Americans are talking about places like Norway or Canada, they often don't say that such incidents reflect on Norwegian or Canadian culture. And within America, I don't think many left-of-center folks would say that Texas gun nuts represent their culture or even America's.
| Quote: |
| You're also doing what you've become famous for and merging several different people's opinions into one strawman argument that you can easily counter. You gave three examples of what various different people have said about many different situations and then concluded that this cherry picked Voltron of 'haters' cannot defend their position. Well, I'm sure I can take what you've said along with 10 other posters here that I get to choose and find inconsistencies among all of your comments over time, too. I'm not going to sit here and defend what these other people said, if anyone actually said those things and you're not just making it up (yet to see any actual quotes or proof of these 'arguments' anywhere). If you want to comment on what I said feel free though. |
That's why I didn't mention your name. You have your own opinion.
| Quote: |
| You have your agenda and aren't interested in facts, free flows of ideas or intelligent debate. You disgustingly went on for how many pages in the main thread about this defending the captain simply because he's Korean and most people are not despite the fact that the majority of Koreans find his actions abhorrent and criminal. |
Listen, I want you and other people to understand this now- I AM NOT defending the captain, and I'm certainly not doing so because of his culture.
I tried to debate it intelligently. I posted timelines and evidence and based my conclusions off of them, not "The captain is a scumbag, therefore everything he did must be wrong", which is what most other people did. I could have said "Yeah, he should have just ordered everyone on deck. That was easy for him to do, he had plenty of time, and plenty of information". But that wasn't true. The evidence doesn't support it. I would be lying to myself and you if I said that. This has nothing to do with him being Korean. If it was a Norwegian or Ugandan or Ecuadorean vessel, crew, and captain, under the same circumstances I would draw the exact same conclusions- Why? Because that is what the evidence presently indicates. People love to say "he should have done this and that", and maybe he should have, but in this whatever action he took was one that was based on severely limited information and a 4 minute timeframe. He can choose A or B or C in my book and as long as there seems to be a reasonable concern behind it, I'll accept it, given the circumstances.
And what did I get for looking scientifically at the evidence and actually refuting some of the erroneous claims that were floated about? People accusing me of blind nationalism (which I understand- hey you get a rep), and worse, of spitting on the victims' graves (which I don't understand and whoever thinks that can piss off). If people are incapable of looking at this incident and being able to go "Well, he's guilty of counts 1 and 2, but innocent of count 3", then they should refrain from posting until they have control over their emotions and have developed their rational analysis to be able to do such a thing. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:42 am Post subject: |
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SR.
1. There are things that will happen to a woman/man in India or Iran or Afghanistan, that would never happen in Korea, Japan, Canada or the U.S. The only reason you are refusing to aknowledge the Role of culture in the sewol sinking is because something terrible has happened.
2. How much nautical/boating/marine experience do you have? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| There are things that will happen to a woman/man in India or Iran or Afghanistan, that would never happen in Korea, Japan, Canada or the U.S. The only reason you are refusing to aknowledge the Role of culture in the sewol sinking is because something terrible has happened. |
The reason I'm not acknowledging it is that it is very hard to prove at this point. As I said, the people who argue "culture" in these events are the people that can argue a person speeding, driving slow, and driving the speed limit as "culture". It's not rational analysis. It's creative writing.
But as I also said, we can certainly point to a "culture of corruption" or "culture of lax standards", same as we do in pretty much every country where negligent disasters crop up, which is pretty much every country. But its quite a leap to blame it on "Korean culture". As I said, that's about as concrete as blaming it on the "occult", which I might add has started to happen. In these big disasters, people tend to blame unseen forces like conspiracies, "culture" and the occult.
| mayorgc wrote: |
SR.
1. There are things that will happen to a woman/man in India or Iran or Afghanistan, that would never happen in Korea, Japan, Canada or the U.S. The only reason you are refusing to aknowledge the Role of culture in the sewol sinking is because something terrible has happened.
2. How much nautical/boating/marine experience do you have? |
Nothing marine. Freshwater- Hovercrafting and yachting as a kid on my uncle's yacht.
But I fail to see how my experience in seafaring affects the data that exists out there. If you have something to refute regarding the timeline, then fine.
Now, it may be that the moment something slightly goes wrong on ships around the world that captains all instantly have their passengers proceed to muster points, but I'm willing to bet that this is not the case, certainly not within the first four minutes (and likely 2-3 given the time needed for the captain to reach the bridge).
As I said, we're talking 4 minutes here, possibly less. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| mayorgc wrote: |
SR.
1. There are things that will happen to a woman/man in India or Iran or Afghanistan, that would never happen in Korea, Japan, Canada or the U.S. The only reason you are refusing to aknowledge the Role of culture in the sewol sinking is because something terrible has happened.
2. How much nautical/boating/marine experience do you have? |
Don't even bother asking #2. SR is an expert in everything. He's a pilot, a sailer, a military specialist. He grew up in the ghetto while simultaneously as a minority among whites in a middle class neighbourhood. I'm sure if we were talking about the Mars Rover SR would suddenly have expert knowledge from his time with NASA. He truly is the most interesting man in the world.
We need a picture of SR with the caption:
I DON'T ALWAYS KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT
BUT WHEN I DON'T I KEEP ON TALKING |
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