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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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 Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
What some people here are trying to say is that culture has no impact on the individual and to say otherwise is 'racist'. This is the same attempts by these same people to shut down any conversation about Korea/Koreans that they deem negative in the slightest way.
1) Culture is man made.
2) Culture affects the individual to some degree.
3) Culture has nothing to do with race. Confucianism isn't Korean.
4) The way some people talk about culture can sound racist, or even be racist.
5) This does not preclude the fact that culture is relevant when talking about certain issues.
6) It is actually more racist to defend the captain's actions because he is Korean than to say Korean culture may have influenced his actions.
7) Not all events have everything to do with culture.
8 ) Saying Korean culture influenced a certain event =/= culture has never affected any event in my home country.
Like I said earlier, I don't believe personally that culture had much to do with the accident itself. Accidents happen. SR and others keep trying to muddy the issue stating that fact. We know that. We're not talking about that (at least I, and most others, aren't). You are avoiding talking about preparedness, corruption and emergency response because you have no answer to that.
I'm not expert in Korean culture but neither are you guys. You don't get to tell us we don't know anything and then go ahead and tell us everything about it like you're experts. We do have to wait for all the facts. My point is only that culture could have played a role, just as culture plays a role in school shootings in the US, and other events elsewhere. But we're talking about Korea now. Why must every sentence about Korea be balanced by a sentence about our home countries? We're talking about Korea and Korean culture. And yes, Korean culture has an affect on Koreans. |
This site needs a 'like' button. I was thinking something along similar lines, but you put it much better than I would have. Some of the uglier aspects of Korean culture were on display here, and that is what some leading Koreans have been hanging their heads in shame over. Greed, corruption, abuse of power, nepotism, incompetence, malpractice and so on. These are all very prevalent aspects of Korean culture and played their part in the sinking of the boat.
However, the notion that Confucianism caused the kids to stay in their seats and drown, is a thinly-veiled racist jibe that suggests these kids were dumb Asians. It is also in very poor taste. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| RangerMcGreggor wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
I would agree there's very little culture in Korea, but people are using it and have been using it as shorthand for a society's norms and mores until now with no problem. Why is it suddenly so problematic? Because it no longer suits the apologista rhetoric? |
Because what most "cultural" argumetns people are making are just lazy and semi-racist rhetoric. An accident happened? Clearly it must be because of Confucionism and Koreans always obeying authority (Nevermind that "obeying all authority" is neither a Confucion or really an accurate description of Korean culture). Most of the time, it's just people picking and chosing to fit their own worldview.
Gladwell is a good example of this. He completely makes up **** to fit his arguments about Korean culture, that he clearly didn't do any research on. Koreans aren't native English speakers so of course language problems must have happened due to pilots speaking Korean (nevermind that Korean pilots are generally profecient in English and the pilots in the accident he analyzed were speaking English for most of the trip). Koreans are Confucionist so OF COURSE everyone must follow the lead pilot with no questions asked (as AsktheKorean pointed out, that is not how Korean professionals work). In the end, we don't actually learn anything about Korea or how to stop accidents. Just look like douchebags.
Can you make a legit cultural analysis? Sure. Many independent organizations did this in the 1990s before Gladwell about Korean aviation and they came up with conclusions that went beyond "They are different then us" (The strong military background of Korean pilots lead to some bad habits). I've seen a couple people comment on how the rapid modernization and authoritarian rule has led to a general disrespect for rule of law and "regulation" which is definitely a worthwhile argument and something I've seen many Koreans echo. But that isn't what most people are doing right now. It's just standard "Koreans are different from us which is why this is a mess." That isn't going to go anywhere and doesn't teach us anything worthwhile. |
I agree that blaming the victims for obeying the orders they received on Confucianism/authoritarianism is a knee-jerk reaction and superficial analysis.
As for how Koreans work, my experience at Samsung was that they follow the lead dog and when he barks they jump whether they agree or not.
As for lazy, I'd say your statements fit the bill, especially the "they are different from us" and "semi-racist rhetoric."
As for the blog you cite, he seems to be doing exactly what he's accusing Gladwell of doing. And I love his response to comments that disagree with him: "You didn't understand."
Lazy, authoritarian? |
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RangerMcGreggor
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:42 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Mr. BlackCat"]
| RangerMcGreggor wrote: |
I'm curious if you believe that Gladwell was so off base in his analysis, why did various Korean airlines adopt the very measures that counteracted the things he pointed out? Why did the safety records of Korean airlines, specifically Korean Air, improve so dramatically once these policies were put in place? |
Except they didn't. The Korean airlines (along with like 20 other countries) implemented changes in the 1990s after reviews of OTHER groups in reaction. Also, they aren't actually Gladwell's policies as some of his theories are actually piggyed back by other people, notably Robert Helmreich (which isn't a knock on Gladwell btw since he has made it clear he is borrowing heavily from Helmreich).
Which actually reminds me of something that many people often forget when talking about Gladwell: He was talking about Korean airlines up until he mid 1990s. Whatever parts he got right or were atleast notable, they may not even accurately describe any problems Korean airlines face.
| Quote: |
| I'm also curious why you take the word of some random anonymous internet blogger with a stated pro-Korea agenda over that of a respected author who has written accurate, well-researched and thoughtful books and articles on a number of cultural issues around the world? Not saying he must get everything right, but I'm not sure why I have to believe some random guy on the internet more than him, especially when evidence, both scientific and empirical, supports the established and respected author. |
I'm curious to wonder why you'd take the word of some random journalist, who is not trained in anything related to aviation nor sociology nor Korean studies at all, over an actual Korean on the issue of Korean culture.
Gladwell is a journalist best known for pop-behavioral economics. There is nothing to suggest he is an expert on this or even did a crapload of research. IIRC, he didn't even talk to any actual Korean pilots which is pretty damning for any journalist. Throw in the fact that some of his ideas are either incredibly outdated or incredibly wrong (the language argument) then it is really hard to take it seriously.
Last edited by RangerMcGreggor on Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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RangerMcGreggor
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
As for lazy, I'd say your statements fit the bill, especially the "they are different from us" and "semi-racist rhetoric."
...
Lazy, authoritarian? |
.. what? |
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Jongno2bucheon
Joined: 11 Mar 2014
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:27 am Post subject: |
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[quote="RangerMcGreggor"]
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| RangerMcGreggor wrote: |
I'm curious if you believe that Gladwell was so off base in his analysis, why did various Korean airlines adopt the very measures that counteracted the things he pointed out? Why did the safety records of Korean airlines, specifically Korean Air, improve so dramatically once these policies were put in place? |
Except they didn't. The Korean airlines (along with like 20 other countries) implemented changes in the 1990s after reviews of OTHER groups in reaction. Also, they aren't actually Gladwell's policies as some of his theories are actually piggyed back by other people, notably Robert Helmreich (which isn't a knock on Gladwell btw since he has made it clear he is borrowing heavily from Helmreich).
Which actually reminds me of something that many people often forget when talking about Gladwell: He was talking about Korean airlines up until he mid 1990s. Whatever parts he got right or were atleast notable, they may not even accurately describe any problems Korean airlines face.
| Quote: |
| I'm also curious why you take the word of some random anonymous internet blogger with a stated pro-Korea agenda over that of a respected author who has written accurate, well-researched and thoughtful books and articles on a number of cultural issues around the world? Not saying he must get everything right, but I'm not sure why I have to believe some random guy on the internet more than him, especially when evidence, both scientific and empirical, supports the established and respected author. |
I'm curious to wonder why you'd take the word of some random journalist, who is not trained in anything related to aviation nor sociology nor Korean studies at all, over an actual Korean on the issue of Korean culture.
Gladwell is a journalist best known for pop-behavioral economics. There is nothing to suggest he is an expert on this or even did a crapload of research. IIRC, he didn't even talk to any actual Korean pilots which is pretty damning for any journalist. Throw in the fact that some of his ideas are either incredibly outdated or incredibly wrong (the language argument) then it is really hard to take it seriously. |
Why would I take the word of a respected journalist who has his works published, before which they are fact-checked and edited, over a random blogger? I think the answer is self-evident.
Journalists investigate and report. Gladwell didn't come up with those ideas; he got them from the people researching them. He readily admits that.
What was so scientific about the blogger's post? Is that the new buzz word for defending arguments?
As for "people talking about Gladwell," as far as I can tell, that's only you, at least on this forum. Of course the topics you bring up related to him are out-dated--when was the book written? |
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Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| chellovek wrote: |
| radish kimchi wrote: |
muster points?  |
The very same!
To assemble or bring together, as in a place where people assemble in case of an emergency  |
"All hands muster on the flight deck for inspection" |
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Okie from Muskogee
Joined: 30 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| I am told by a korean colleague that when doing business in korea, you always have to figure in the cost of greasing hands of various government officials. Thus, the businesses have to cut costs in safety and varous areas to make up the difference. He said korean government is like a big mafia. If you don't pay, they make your business miserable and impossible. |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| cj1976 wrote: |
| This site needs a 'like' button. |
Keep your modern ideas out of our 12 year old bulletin board software! We like things just the way they are! Git offa mah laaawwn!! |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
(1) But what makes negligence so acceptable and easy to get away with? What makes it so common? What makes it a part of the fabric of Korean society?
(2) Why should more ferries be sinking? Negligence is not a problem until it is a problem. You neglect to change the oil in your car, you don't have a problem every time you drive it. (Since the apologist camp seems to only understand analogies, I added that just for them.)
(3) Is it impossible to empathize with and thus understand other humans? Do not Koreans share common values, were they not educated in a similar fashion, do they not, due to their cultural norms and mores as often as not think of themselves as one family?
(4) I would agree there's very little culture in Korea, but people are using it and have been using it as shorthand for a society's norms and mores until now with no problem. Why is it suddenly so problematic? Because it no longer suits the apologista rhetoric?
(5) And we're trying to shut him up so the thread can get back on track, although at this point I'd say we're beating a dead horse. There's nothing ironic about it at all. It's a straight-on full court press. |
(numbers added for clearer reference as there seems to be a bit of confusion here).
(1) As regards the questions in your first paragraph...I doubt anyone has the answers to the first two. One can easily find example after example of negligence all over the world in every country. That being said it answers your third question (kind of), namely that negligence happens in every country...which doesn't mean that it is part of any culture or society.
It's mostly due to factors like laziness, inadequate training and a host of other things. Culture has very little to do with it. A culture which DID have negligence as a part of it...would sooner or later cease to exist.
(2) Because if negligence were such a intricate part of Korean society...it would be a commonplace thing. We'd see buildings collapsing, ferries sinking, planes falling out of the sky...it wouldn't even be news. Given the length of time they've been around...there should be considerably more of these. But again these things happen in every country...where's the tipping point between commonplace negligence and "culture"? Until someone can come up with the answer and the process whereby he got said answer I would suggest that any reply of "culture" is simply either trolling or ignorance.
(3) Yes SOME Koreans do think that way...again not all. Point being that one or two people are not representative of a society as a whole. Even actual families have violent disagreements sometimes...to the point where they initiate lawsuits or refuse to speak to another member for years or ever again.
To list just one example. There are a considerable number of interracial marriages here. People have claimed that interracial marriage is looked down on by Koreans. Well obviously there are a good number of Koreans who don't exactly feel that way.
(4) I don't know who you are agreeing with...not me which is why I'm confused as to why you included it in a response to me...just a gratuitous jab?
There have been other threads where people have blamed Korean culture for certain issues and other people have taken issue with it. Not quite sure here what you are talking about. "Korean culture" has been a hot button issue on this site ever since it was established.
(5) Well at least you admit it although I think a quicker way of getting the topic back on track would be to ignore him and just post regarding the topic. |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Korean people are quite proud of their culture when talking about the things that they have done well. Every sporting achievement, corporate success or triumph over adversity is a source of pride for Koreans, and invariably boils down to the Korean way of doing things. It's only fair that they think the same when they *beep* it up. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Hey CJ, you can't criticize any aspect of Korean culture. It's taboo.
Every country is equal. Every person in the world goes through life the same as everybody else. The legal system, people, culture, society, beliefs are all the same.
If anything were to deviate, it is probably due to mathematics.
A woman living in Iran would culturally have the same life as a woman living in South Korea. If something were to happen to the woman in Iran, but not to the woman in Korea, it's due to a random incident, possibly due to the action of 1 individual. |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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I think that as per usual on Dave's, the argument has polarised into two extremes but the truth is probably somewhere in between. Some are using Korean culture to regurgitate tired clichés about Korean people, but others are denying the ills of Korean society that have attributed to past disasters and probably this one too.
But that's just, like, my opinion, man. |
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RangerMcGreggor
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
Why would I take the word of a respected journalist who has his works published, before which they are fact-checked and edited, over a random blogger? I think the answer is self-evident. |
A journalist who (a.) has a questionable history of ethics and (b.) has no knowledge about Korea, Korean language or linguistics over someone who actually is Korean.
This is a classic appeal to authority fallacy. Gladwell is just a journalist who wrote about it and isn't trained on the subject and it shows.
| Quote: |
| As for "people talking about Gladwell," as far as I can tell, that's only you, at least on this forum. Of course the topics you bring up related to him are out-dated--when was the book written? |
You're missing the point.
The big aspect of his argument was the role of language barriers that played in the Guam crash. The problem was that Korean pilots on the plane spoke pretty good English and this was after the Korean airline industry massively reformed their training to make English a big part of the program. That is where the "outdated" comes from. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
(1) But what makes negligence so acceptable and easy to get away with? What makes it so common? What makes it a part of the fabric of Korean society?
(2) Why should more ferries be sinking? Negligence is not a problem until it is a problem. You neglect to change the oil in your car, you don't have a problem every time you drive it. (Since the apologist camp seems to only understand analogies, I added that just for them.)
(3) Is it impossible to empathize with and thus understand other humans? Do not Koreans share common values, were they not educated in a similar fashion, do they not, due to their cultural norms and mores as often as not think of themselves as one family?
(4) I would agree there's very little culture in Korea, but people are using it and have been using it as shorthand for a society's norms and mores until now with no problem. Why is it suddenly so problematic? Because it no longer suits the apologista rhetoric?
(5) And we're trying to shut him up so the thread can get back on track, although at this point I'd say we're beating a dead horse. There's nothing ironic about it at all. It's a straight-on full court press. |
(numbers added for clearer reference as there seems to be a bit of confusion here).
(1) As regards the questions in your first paragraph...I doubt anyone has the answers to the first two. One can easily find example after example of negligence all over the world in every country. That being said it answers your third question (kind of), namely that negligence happens in every country...which doesn't mean that it is part of any culture or society.
It's mostly due to factors like laziness, inadequate training and a host of other things. Culture has very little to do with it. A culture which DID have negligence as a part of it...would sooner or later cease to exist.
(2) Because if negligence were such a intricate part of Korean society...it would be a commonplace thing. We'd see buildings collapsing, ferries sinking, planes falling out of the sky...it wouldn't even be news. Given the length of time they've been around...there should be considerably more of these. But again these things happen in every country...where's the tipping point between commonplace negligence and "culture"? Until someone can come up with the answer and the process whereby he got said answer I would suggest that any reply of "culture" is simply either trolling or ignorance.
(3) Yes SOME Koreans do think that way...again not all. Point being that one or two people are not representative of a society as a whole. Even actual families have violent disagreements sometimes...to the point where they initiate lawsuits or refuse to speak to another member for years or ever again.
To list just one example. There are a considerable number of interracial marriages here. People have claimed that interracial marriage is looked down on by Koreans. Well obviously there are a good number of Koreans who don't exactly feel that way.
(4) I don't know who you are agreeing with...not me which is why I'm confused as to why you included it in a response to me...just a gratuitous jab?
There have been other threads where people have blamed Korean culture for certain issues and other people have taken issue with it. Not quite sure here what you are talking about. "Korean culture" has been a hot button issue on this site ever since it was established.
(5) Well at least you admit it although I think a quicker way of getting the topic back on track would be to ignore him and just post regarding the topic. |
You answers are IMO evasive and don't look at the whole picture.
For example, your statements about interracial marriages. You don't mention how tiny a percentage of all marriages in Korea they are, which would go to demonstrate how much or how little they are accepted by society. As it is, your "good number" is debatable.
You also fail to mention that many of such marriages are marriages of convenience, that otherwise rural Korean males would be without a mate.
Finally, just because a few people do something doesn't mean that the society as a whole accepts it.
Your whole argument seems to be that not 100% of Koreans do, think or feel exactly the same on an issue and thus there are no generally held values or beliefs in Korea.
As for negligence, I see problems arising from it all the time here. It doesn't have to be a disaster to be a problem. For example, the main doors of the building I work in, a building now about three years old, after a month could only be shut with great effort. They had not been hung right. They were adjusted and adjusted and adjusted again. finally they had to be taken down and rehung. The same holds true for quite a few of the inner doors as well.
It's easy to observe this type of slipshod work in Korea because there is no culture of quality craftsmanship.
Heck, the new jewel of Seoul, the DDP, has all kinds of problems already.
But a better example may be the Asiana plane with the bad oil filter. That certainly sounds like poor maintenance to me and now they need to replace the entire engine. Nobody died, but I'd call that a problem.
So I disagree with how you define negligence, around which much of your argument is centered.
Furthermore, why can't laziness and the other attributes you mention be cultural? |
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