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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
metalhead, a question. How is lying/face-saving a Korean problem and not a general one if there is an English language word for it? Wouldn't that logically imply that people in our culture (language is a part of culture) also engage in those activities, hence why we have words in the English language to describe them? |
So there's no Korean word for lying?
If that were so, it would say quite a bit about Korean culture, wouldn't it?
I'm surprised you're bringing up your language argument again after I already debunked it. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
metalhead, a question. How is lying/face-saving a Korean problem and not a general one if there is an English language word for it? Wouldn't that logically imply that people in our culture (language is a part of culture) also engage in those activities, hence why we have words in the English language to describe them? |
So there's no Korean word for lying?
If that were so, it would say quite a bit about Korean culture, wouldn't it?
I'm surprised you're bringing up your language argument again after I already debunked it. |
And it can easily mean that (word) *was* a problem, and no longer is (or has been mitigated). Or was useful and isn't so useful anymore. Genocide, halberd. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:22 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
metalhead, a question. How is lying/face-saving a Korean problem and not a general one if there is an English language word for it? Wouldn't that logically imply that people in our culture (language is a part of culture) also engage in those activities, hence why we have words in the English language to describe them? |
So there's no Korean word for lying?
If that were so, it would say quite a bit about Korean culture, wouldn't it?
I'm surprised you're bringing up your language argument again after I already debunked it. |
And it can easily mean that (word) *was* a problem, and no longer is (or has been mitigated). Or was useful and isn't so useful anymore. Genocide, halberd. |
So face-saving and lying are no longer problems in the western world? |
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metalhead
Joined: 18 May 2010
Location: Toilet
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
metalhead, a question. How is lying/face-saving a Korean problem and not a general one if there is an English language word for it? Wouldn't that logically imply that people in our culture (language is a part of culture) also engage in those activities, hence why we have words in the English language to describe them? |
So there's no Korean word for lying?
If that were so, it would say quite a bit about Korean culture, wouldn't it?
I'm surprised you're bringing up your language argument again after I already debunked it. |
And it can easily mean that (word) *was* a problem, and no longer is (or has been mitigated). Or was useful and isn't so useful anymore. Genocide, halberd. |
So face-saving and lying are no longer problems in the western world? |
Constantly comparing Korea to the entire Western world certainly seems unfair - henceforth, anything that happens in China, Cambodia, Vietnam etc will apply to Korea too, how about that? |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:44 am Post subject: |
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http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2014/04/116_156362.html
A last-minute Kakao Talk message from a Danwon High School student on the sinking ferry Sewol to a family member on April 16 was a reminder that many of the missing might have been rescued if the Coast Guard had reacted more swiftly.
The message: “I was told to wait. There was no other announcement after that” was sent at 10:17 a.m., according to a special investigation team.
This was almost 50 minutes after the first Coast Guard rescue team had arrived on the scene; and was about 30 minutes after the captain, Lee Joon-seok, had left the vessel. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| metalhead wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
metalhead, a question. How is lying/face-saving a Korean problem and not a general one if there is an English language word for it? Wouldn't that logically imply that people in our culture (language is a part of culture) also engage in those activities, hence why we have words in the English language to describe them? |
So there's no Korean word for lying?
If that were so, it would say quite a bit about Korean culture, wouldn't it?
I'm surprised you're bringing up your language argument again after I already debunked it. |
And it can easily mean that (word) *was* a problem, and no longer is (or has been mitigated). Or was useful and isn't so useful anymore. Genocide, halberd. |
So face-saving and lying are no longer problems in the western world? |
Constantly comparing Korea to the entire Western world certainly seems unfair - henceforth, anything that happens in China, Cambodia, Vietnam etc will apply to Korea too, how about that? |
How about this- When an individual does something bad or good, we hold the individual responsible and not his or her culture?
| Quote: |
A last-minute Kakao Talk message from a Danwon High School student on the sinking ferry Sewol to a family member on April 16 was a reminder that many of the missing might have been rescued if the Coast Guard had reacted more swiftly.
The message: “I was told to wait. There was no other announcement after that” was sent at 10:17 a.m., according to a special investigation team.
This was almost 50 minutes after the first Coast Guard rescue team had arrived on the scene; and was about 30 minutes after the captain, Lee Joon-seok, had left the vessel. |
That's an awfully big leap to make. We may disagree about the evacuation order timing and whatnot, but I can understand why people think that.
Saying the Coast Guard didn't arrive there fast enough is really stretching it. Ships aren't exactly the fastest things out there. If a ship was 20 nautical miles away and could make a speed of 30 knots (about what most naval/Coast Guard ships' full~flank speed is), it would take it 40 minutes to get there if my calculations are correct. This isn't exactly a downtown block with the fire dept. a couple of kilometers away. Not to mention the degree of list and the extreme difficulty of movement would make any rescue painstakingly slow.
We'd really have to know the location of Coast Guard vessels at the time they received the distress call/were alerted to have any idea whether or not they moved slowly. We don't have that information.
I mean we already have a fisherman who rescued 25 people talking about how heartbroken he was that he couldn't save more before the boat went under... |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
A last-minute Kakao Talk message from a Danwon High School student on the sinking ferry Sewol to a family member on April 16 was a reminder that many of the missing might have been rescued if the Coast Guard had reacted more swiftly.
The message: “I was told to wait. There was no other announcement after that” was sent at 10:17 a.m., according to a special investigation team.
This was almost 50 minutes after the first Coast Guard rescue team had arrived on the scene; and was about 30 minutes after the captain, Lee Joon-seok, had left the vessel. |
That's an awfully big leap to make. We may disagree about the evacuation order timing and whatnot, but I can understand why people think that.
Saying the Coast Guard didn't arrive there fast enough is really stretching it. Ships aren't exactly the fastest things out there. If a ship was 20 nautical miles away and could make a speed of 30 knots (about what most naval/Coast Guard ships' full~flank speed is), it would take it 40 minutes to get there if my calculations are correct. This isn't exactly a downtown block with the fire dept. a couple of kilometers away. Not to mention the degree of list and the extreme difficulty of movement would make any rescue painstakingly slow.
We'd really have to know the location of Coast Guard vessels at the time they received the distress call/were alerted to have any idea whether or not they moved slowly. We don't have that information.
I mean we already have a fisherman who rescued 25 people talking about how heartbroken he was that he couldn't save more before the boat went under... |
I think what's interesting is that this implies that the crew member who said to the Tower that the 'abandon the ship' announcement has been made (after 10 minutes of him asking if the students would be saved if they were to abandon the ship - with a fishing boat right next to the ferry while he is asking this) was lying (or potentially err... thought that he did, when in fact he didn't). |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| maximmm wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
A last-minute Kakao Talk message from a Danwon High School student on the sinking ferry Sewol to a family member on April 16 was a reminder that many of the missing might have been rescued if the Coast Guard had reacted more swiftly.
The message: “I was told to wait. There was no other announcement after that” was sent at 10:17 a.m., according to a special investigation team.
This was almost 50 minutes after the first Coast Guard rescue team had arrived on the scene; and was about 30 minutes after the captain, Lee Joon-seok, had left the vessel. |
That's an awfully big leap to make. We may disagree about the evacuation order timing and whatnot, but I can understand why people think that.
Saying the Coast Guard didn't arrive there fast enough is really stretching it. Ships aren't exactly the fastest things out there. If a ship was 20 nautical miles away and could make a speed of 30 knots (about what most naval/Coast Guard ships' full~flank speed is), it would take it 40 minutes to get there if my calculations are correct. This isn't exactly a downtown block with the fire dept. a couple of kilometers away. Not to mention the degree of list and the extreme difficulty of movement would make any rescue painstakingly slow.
We'd really have to know the location of Coast Guard vessels at the time they received the distress call/were alerted to have any idea whether or not they moved slowly. We don't have that information.
I mean we already have a fisherman who rescued 25 people talking about how heartbroken he was that he couldn't save more before the boat went under... |
I think what's interesting is that this implies that the crew member who said to the Tower that the 'abandon the ship' announcement has been made (after 10 minutes of him asking if the students would be saved if they were to abandon the ship - with a fishing boat right next to the ferry while he is asking this) was lying (or potentially err... thought that he did, when in fact he didn't). |
Well that's certainly true too. I just want to clarify that I'm only talking about the lack of an evacuation order within the first 4 minutes before the ship's dramatic 2nd turn. Failing to issue an evacuation order 30 minutes into the ordeal as the ship is sinking is obvious criminal negligence (although it may have been largely irrelevant at the time with the state of the ship). Regardless, such an order properly given at the time the ship became so dramatically listed (after 4 minutes in, at most as much as 7), and the decision to evacuate at 9:26 and to not ensure the order was properly given (unless the broadcast system was down/stuck in a loop- and even that doesn't excuse the crew trying to verbally pass it along) is a criminal offense and a severe dereliction of duty.
***-Apologies to anyone who may have thought I was talking about the evacuation order beyond the 4 minutes. I think I've made that pretty clear throughout my posts with the constant mentioning of that 4 minute window (and it seems most people were arguing along that point as well, so I don't think there was any confusion), but I understand some may not have realized that. |
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Vianca
Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Location: a Korean woman in Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:38 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by Vianca on Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| Vianca wrote: |
According to Yonhap news today
The ship-crews changed into their normal clothes before they escape, maybe in order to hide their identity.
They with the broadcast kept telling people, that the customers need to wait indoors, then they escaped through the aisle in secret, and ignored passengers-room while passing-by... Therefore when the coast-guards arrived the ship, no passengers were outside, except the crews.
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If this is true, then I renew my earlier calls to consider the death penalty. This is an EXTREME dereliction of duty and more than mere negligence, or even panic, but active treachery. Any discussion of evacuation order timing (however valid the argument may be) is superseded by this revelation, if indeed it is true.. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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for what it's worth, wikipedia also implies that the announcement to stay put was made when the situation was already dire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewol#Ship |
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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There are some obscene opinions in that article.
"Passengers stayed in place not because they were told to do so, but because within moments of the ship’s initial lurch, it was already at an angle sharp enough to inhibit movement."
Passengers escaped when the ship was laying on its side nearing 90 degrees.
That article should not be called news. Its more like porno. |
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uklathemock
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| The best evidence is the student video taken inside the ferry. The kids were told not to move 8 times over the p.a. system. I think the 5th or 6th time was "never move." The last p.a. announcement was to put on vests. Best student quote: "What's the captain doing?" |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| uklathemock wrote: |
| The best evidence is the student video taken inside the ferry. The kids were told not to move 8 times over the p.a. system. I think the 5th or 6th time was "never move." The last p.a. announcement was to put on vests. Best student quote: "What's the captain doing?" |
He jumped ship in just his undies, so one could make a few guesses.
BTW, when is ferry humor acceptable here? |
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