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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Personally I don't see any merit at all in the Prime Minister's resignation. To whatever extent any of this was his responsibility, it would be best for him to take the burden of enacting the relevant reforms upon himself. Instead he's just acting like a political whipping boy to create the image that someone's "paying the price" for all of this, probably to deflect blame from the President or the wider ruling party. |
To resign and apologize--must I say it?
That's Korean culture.
I agree with your post. To take the blame and to blame others doesn't help. Solutions and the people to find them and put them into action are what is needed. |
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Ralph Winfield
Joined: 23 Apr 2013
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:16 am Post subject: |
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| Jodami wrote: |
The thing Koreans are most upset about, is the fact Korea looks bad to an international audience. This is in fact their very worst nightmare. Sad but true.  |
Yeah, after the deaths of the kids and other passengers, most locals are upset about their country's image taking yet another beating. It's hard- if not impossible- to not accept this sad fact about this country's general population. |
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
2 days ago I wrote a note and allowed a national news station to film me while I placed it on a line in public.
A week ago I lit a candle in a public vigil.
Ive been wearing a yellow ribbon for the last 4 days.
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You aren't the only person doing positive things.
You are the only person self-promoting about it. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| guavashake wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
2 days ago I wrote a note and allowed a national news station to film me while I placed it on a line in public.
A week ago I lit a candle in a public vigil.
Ive been wearing a yellow ribbon for the last 4 days.
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You aren't the only person doing positive things.
You are the only person self-promoting about it. |
Where did I say I was the only person doing anything?
I was replying to a post that suggested people try doing something positive - its really that literal and easy to understand Guava7 |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| Smithington wrote: |
| If not, police officers (starting with chiefs of police) need to be fired and charged with criminal negligence. Same goes for the fire departments and any other body assigned responsibility for public safety. |
Can't wholesale fire rank-and-file workers. Other countries have tried, like Hong Kong, but it backfired on them. So they changed the culture at the top and it filtered down. And you've got to ensure that the ones in charge create a new culture of 'clean'. |
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Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
This disaster is indicative of everything that is wrong with Korea.
Outdated values.
Disorganisation.
General selfishness.
No regard for life.
Superficial morals.
Lack of real leadership.
General incompetence.
The inability to learn from ones mistakes.
The inability to share information.
Poor/non existent health and safety.
Corner cutting on cost resulting in dangerous practices.
Arrogance.
Ignorance.
Sexism.
Finger pointing/blame culture.
People not able to take any type of criticism/constructive advice.
Lack of training for a particular position.
General indifference.
Inability to think creatively.
Lacking in practical leadership skills.
Putting money-self above other.
General insensitivity - lack of empathy for other humans.
(There are more but I haven't drank coffee yet).
All of the above fit into the disaster somewhere. You can decide yourself where. |
A better and more complete list than I could have mustered. Good job Le-Paul. |
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
| guavashake wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
2 days ago I wrote a note and allowed a national news station to film me while I placed it on a line in public.
A week ago I lit a candle in a public vigil.
Ive been wearing a yellow ribbon for the last 4 days.
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You aren't the only person doing positive things.
You are the only person self-promoting about it. |
Where did I say I was the only person doing anything?
I was replying to a post that suggested people try doing something positive - its really that literal and easy to understand Guava7 |
I did not quote you as you saying you are the only person doing anything.
I am the one who said you are the only one who is self-promoting about it.
I know what you suggested and in addition to the suggestions you self-promoted about it.
I couldn't imagine anyone self-promoting about it beside a politician.
Until I saw you self-promoting about it.
While at the same time disparaging every Korean around you.
"Outdated values.
Disorganisation.
General selfishness.
No regard for life.
Superficial morals.
Lack of real leadership.
General incompetence.
The inability to learn from ones mistakes.
The inability to share information.
Poor/non existent health and safety.
Corner cutting on cost resulting in dangerous practices.
Arrogance.
Ignorance.
Sexism.
Finger pointing/blame culture.
People not able to take any type of criticism/constructive advice.
Lack of training for a particular position.
General indifference.
Inability to think creatively.
Lacking in practical leadership skills.
Putting money-self above other.
General insensitivity - lack of empathy for other humans.
(There are more but I haven't drank coffee yet)."
So it is quite interesting and commentable.
If you don't fancy that, it can be said differently.
Many people are doing positive things. You are the only one self-promoting about it.
Any more questions? |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Ok...
I am the one who said you are the only one who is self-promoting about it.
You said 'You aren't the only person doing positive things', which implies - or rather 'states' that you believe I am the only person doing positive things. I then asked where i wrote that I was the only person doing that which you stated. To this you replied that you (quote) "...did not quote [you] as you saying you are the only person doing anything' when in fact you did quote me as saying that by directly quoting me (by hitting the quote button) and then adding your comment.
My question about 'doing anything' was with regard to your accusation of me being the only person to do 'anything positive'. By attempting to change its meaning to suit your own petty meandering, is to be honest, quite pedantic.
If you genuinely did not grasp that, then fair do's. However, Id suggest that youre not a native English speaker if you missed this, and maybe you shouldn't be picking written arguments with people online, on a forum where you cant use expletives, vulgarities and throw insults.
Anyway, here's what you said one more time;
"I am the one who said you are the only one who is self-promoting about it." - meaning (in context) that was the only point you made.
However you also said this;
"You aren't the only person doing positive things". Which contradicts your claim that you only stated that I am promoting myself in some way - when in fact you made two points - one positive and one negative. Perhaps that's where you go confused?. Negative still implies something.
So maybe you can see why I'm a little perplexed?.
I know what you suggested and in addition to the suggestions you self-promoted about it.
What does that even mean? Ive read it six times and every time it seems even more like gibberish.
You have the writing style of someone who is either i/ trying to appear more eloquent and intelligent than they really are, ii/ a non- native English speaker - so please elaborate.
Until I saw you self-promoting about it.
You cant keep writing 'it' you have to refer to the point you are trying to make now and again. It gets confusing for the reader.
disparaging every Korean around you.
Its not disparaging - its called being frank. There is a difference (was it you that sent me two death threats yesterday?).
Commentable is spelled 'commendable' (unless you meant its comment - able?).
self-promoting
Since you obviously couldnt be bothered to read the sentence 'I was replying to a post that suggested people try doing something positive' which only has 13 words in it, Ill 'c+p' it again. I was replying to a post that suggested people try doing something positive.
If you don't fancy that, it can be said differently.
Please don't.
Ive already spent too much time procrastinating this evening, and I would end up spending another 20 minutes trying to decipher your code - which only you and a select, few others must understand.
Any more questions?
Yes -
a/ Where did you learn to debate so poorly?
b/ Who allowed you to pass a degree level course thus entitling you to the title Ba or Bsc (supposing you're from the west is best)?
c/ Which part of Korea were you born in?
God, even my heads in knots now...  Thank you - now I didnt get any work done tonight  |
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Jodami
Joined: 08 Feb 2013
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
This disaster is indicative of everything that is wrong with Korea.
Outdated values.
Disorganisation.
General selfishness.
No regard for life.
Superficial morals.
Lack of real leadership.
General incompetence.
The inability to learn from ones mistakes.
The inability to share information.
Poor/non existent health and safety.
Corner cutting on cost resulting in dangerous practices.
Arrogance.
Ignorance.
Sexism.
Finger pointing/blame culture.
People not able to take any type of criticism/constructive advice.
Lack of training for a particular position.
General indifference.
Inability to think creatively.
Lacking in practical leadership skills.
Putting money-self above other.
General insensitivity - lack of empathy for other humans.
(There are more but I haven't drank coffee yet).
All of the above fit into the disaster somewhere. You can decide yourself where. |
Excellent list. However, it could be also argued that this list is incomplete.
I'd also add:
Inability to face up to a serious alcohol problem which seriously undermines competence in the workplace (was the captain of the ferry really as sloshed as it was alleged?)
Siege mentality
Inferiority complex
Serious lack of productivity in the workplace/educational establishments
Always talking the talk but never ever walking the walk (always talking about manners but rarely showing any)
Peasant mentality (a monkey in a suit is still a monkey at the end of the day
An obsession with window dressing
Terrible communication skills
That's all for now - did I miss anything? |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Briefly. The day after the Sewol incident, I took the bus to Seoul and they stopped in the parking lot and made a safety announcement. The bus driver kept it under the limit the whole way there. Yesterday, I took a bus to Seoul, and it was business as usual. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I'd also add:
Inability to face up to a serious alcohol problem which seriously undermines competence in the workplace (was the captain of the ferry really as sloshed as it was alleged?)
Siege mentality
Inferiority complex
Serious lack of productivity in the workplace/educational establishments
Always talking the talk but never ever walking the walk (always talking about manners but rarely showing any)
Peasant mentality (a monkey in a suit is still a monkey at the end of the day
An obsession with window dressing
Terrible communication skills
That's all for now - did I miss anything? |
People wonder why apologists say bashing is bigoted, when they say "we're just telling the truth" or "we're just commenting and offering criticism".
Now we have Koreans called subhuman and compared to monkeys. |
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
Please don't.
Thank you |
I already did, and you're welcome.
Many people are doing positive things. You are the only one self-promoting about it, while disparaging every Korean around you.
le=paul wrote:
"Outdated values.
Disorganisation.
General selfishness.
No regard for life.
Superficial morals.
Lack of real leadership.
General incompetence.
The inability to learn from ones mistakes.
The inability to share information.
Poor/non existent health and safety.
Corner cutting on cost resulting in dangerous practices.
Arrogance.
Ignorance.
Sexism.
Finger pointing/blame culture.
People not able to take any type of criticism/constructive advice.
Lack of training for a particular position.
General indifference.
Inability to think creatively.
Lacking in practical leadership skills.
Putting money-self above other.
General insensitivity - lack of empathy for other humans.
(There are more but I haven't drank coffee yet)." |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Jodami wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
This disaster is indicative of everything that is wrong with Korea.
Outdated values.
Disorganisation.
General selfishness.
No regard for life.
Superficial morals.
Lack of real leadership.
General incompetence.
The inability to learn from ones mistakes.
The inability to share information.
Poor/non existent health and safety.
Corner cutting on cost resulting in dangerous practices.
Arrogance.
Ignorance.
Sexism.
Finger pointing/blame culture.
People not able to take any type of criticism/constructive advice.
Lack of training for a particular position.
General indifference.
Inability to think creatively.
Lacking in practical leadership skills.
Putting money-self above other.
General insensitivity - lack of empathy for other humans.
(There are more but I haven't drank coffee yet).
All of the above fit into the disaster somewhere. You can decide yourself where. |
Excellent list. However, it could be also argued that this list is incomplete.
I'd also add:
Inability to face up to a serious alcohol problem which seriously undermines competence in the workplace (was the captain of the ferry really as sloshed as it was alleged?)
Siege mentality
Inferiority complex
Serious lack of productivity in the workplace/educational establishments
Always talking the talk but never ever walking the walk (always talking about manners but rarely showing any)
Peasant mentality (a monkey in a suit is still a monkey at the end of the day
An obsession with window dressing
Terrible communication skills
That's all for now - did I miss anything? |
I might add that your list of traits is a dead ringer for a lot of the complainers on Dave's. |
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| le=paul wrote: |
Commentable is spelled 'commendable' (unless you meant its comment - able?).
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Sorry to disagree with you.
commentable is a related form of comment.
commentable is in dictionaries.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/commentable
You are scrutinizing me, but you are the one who doesn't understand English well.
Where did you go to school?
If you have a degree, where did you get it?
Why are you fabricating a false story about threats? |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Jodami wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
This disaster is indicative of everything that is wrong with Korea.
Outdated values.
Disorganisation.
General selfishness.
No regard for life.
Superficial morals.
Lack of real leadership.
General incompetence.
The inability to learn from ones mistakes.
The inability to share information.
Poor/non existent health and safety.
Corner cutting on cost resulting in dangerous practices.
Arrogance.
Ignorance.
Sexism.
Finger pointing/blame culture.
People not able to take any type of criticism/constructive advice.
Lack of training for a particular position.
General indifference.
Inability to think creatively.
Lacking in practical leadership skills.
Putting money-self above other.
General insensitivity - lack of empathy for other humans.
(There are more but I haven't drank coffee yet).
All of the above fit into the disaster somewhere. You can decide yourself where. |
Excellent list. However, it could be also argued that this list is incomplete.
I'd also add:
Inability to face up to a serious alcohol problem which seriously undermines competence in the workplace (was the captain of the ferry really as sloshed as it was alleged?)
Siege mentality
Inferiority complex
Serious lack of productivity in the workplace/educational establishments
Always talking the talk but never ever walking the walk (always talking about manners but rarely showing any)
Peasant mentality (a monkey in a suit is still a monkey at the end of the day
An obsession with window dressing
Terrible communication skills
That's all for now - did I miss anything? |
I might add that your list of traits is a dead ringer for a lot of the complainers on Dave's. |
Unfortunately, it is a dead ringer for lists/complaints that people have. I wish it weren't, but the fact that individuals keep repeating the same complaints (Im guilty of that too), suggests that these are things that people observe and experience and very rarely have a positive outcome and there is some weight to them (also taking into account that people use forums such as this one and craigs etc. to reinforce their ideas).
Im not proud of the list I wrote and i cant emphasise enough that i wish it weren't like that in reality, but when there are so many negative factors that impede development, the likelihood is (as this disaster has demonstrated) there is usually an impending, serious, incident at the end of the road.
There are so many tinder pots waiting to explode and peoples fingers are going to get burned unless something is addressed. I mean how many people have to get run down by cars, roll over in buses, have buildings collapse on them, get physically/sexually abused by teachers, animals hurled off buildings (by adults no less) etc. before the government step up and admit that things need to change? And when. i say step up, I don't mean tokenism like firing the prime minister.
Its too late to be concerned about people being found, that much is sadly obvious, but the fact that is unlikely anything good can come from this (ie OP) is frustrating and disappointing - especially knowing so many people have suffered for nothing.
( i also think the monkey comment was uncalled for) |
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